2021 Qatar Grand Prix - Losail, Nov 19-21

[AeroDynamic]

With the stewards having the meetings at 13:00, 13:30, and lastly 13:45. Surely this points to the stewards being swift in their decisions and most likely already have come to their decision already with so little time between each one?

Yeh there’s no real argument.

Haha no way,

This is all about letting them qualify, Michael.

[f1jcw]

No document for Max yet

https://www.fia.com/documents/season/se ... ionship-14

[AeroDynamic]

Can someone break down which drivers are at risk of penalty tomorrow, and based on single and double yellows, what potential outcomes they face?

This could be the penalty (credit another user)
Bottas - 3 place grid penalty (ignoring single-waved yellow)
Sainz - 3 place grid penalty (ignoring single-waved yellow)
Verstappen - 5 place grid penalty (ignoring double-waved yellow)

I cannot see the stewards giving Verstappen a hefty penalty like that. No way. But I agree with the other user, so closely before the race is quite ominous

[bosyber]

Okay, getting a bit tired of this discussion of HAM versus VER over past races, did anyone post this solid article from the race yet? Mark Hughes: The truth of Mercedes gains amid Red Bull claims

[At Losail] When we look at that in detail we see the Red Bull’s loss is 0.1s in Turn4/5, half-a-tenth in Turn 6, 0.2s between Turns 7-10 and half-a-tenth between Turns 11-16. The Red Bull tends to be a more front-limited car than the Mercedes, which is more rear-limited by comparison.

This generally reflects the differing aero balance and the way the two cars have to be set up to maximise their concepts. At front-limited tracks such as Hungaroring and Istanbul, the Red Bull tends to struggle. At rear-limited tracks such as Austin, the Mercedes is not at its best.

Coming into the Qatar weekend, the general expectation was that this track new to F1 would err towards being rear-limited. But as the weekend has progressed, it’s clear that it is actually front-limited, as Pirelli’s Mario Isola explains. “When I first saw the numbers yesterday [Friday] I assumed it was because teams were setting up their cars to protect the left-rear. But actually, that is not the case. After looking at it, it is genuinely the front-left which is taking the biggest strain.

“Some of these quick corners are loading the fronts up a lot – but also there are quite a lot of points on the track where you are braking into the corner. This is very hard on the fronts.”

The more the track has rubbered in, the more extreme this trait has become – and the more it seems to have moved towards Mercedes as a result. Half of Merc’s big lap time advantage here is from a better balance than the Red Bull, half from the superior straightline.

In a way, not unexpected, but I do recall discussion about exactly this in the run up to the race, hence I quoted that rather long bit.

It continues with a breakdown of pace differences over more events, which is interesting to read too as it suggests that while Merc took a big step between Mexico and Brazil, while Red Bull actually lost a bit, probably due to being front-limited (pace compared to the rest of the field, w/o either Red Bull or Merc).

[ringo]

With the stewards having the meetings at 13:00, 13:30, and lastly 13:45. Surely this points to the stewards being swift in their decisions and most likely already have come to their decision already with so little time between each one?

Because they are not making those decisions now.. I think they will let them all off with a warning. Luckily for Carlos and Valteri, Max is in the same boat.
But also this delay is for the show and media interest.

If Max gets 5 places?:
LH
PG
FA
Lando
Yuki
Valteri
Max
Estaban
Seb
Carlos

[Alvareth]

Can someone break down which drivers are at risk of penalty tomorrow, and based on single and double yellows, what potential outcomes they face?

This could be the penalty (credit another user)
Bottas - 3 place grid penalty (ignoring single-waved yellow)
Sainz - 3 place grid penalty (ignoring single-waved yellow)
Verstappen - 5 place grid penalty (ignoring double-waved yellow)

I cannot see the stewards giving Verstappen a hefty penalty like that. No way. But I agree with the other user, so closely before the race is quite ominous

The whole situation is a bit messy. A short time yellow, then cancelling, then again yellow. In the mean time a marshal is waving flags in the dark, while Gasly his car is on the other side with green boards after the cancelling. Tomorrow we all know who committed which crime, since the stewards have all new significant, relevant information available to judge.

[RZS10]

Does anyone know in which order the grid drops get handed out?

Is it the order in which the infringements happened on track or the order in which the penalties are handed out?

The order on track was Bottas, Sainz, Verstappen.
The order of the summons (and potentially the penalties) is Verstappen, Sainz, Bottas.

It would make a difference:


edit: as SiLo has pointed out to me this might be wrong.

[KeiKo403]

With the stewards having the meetings at 13:00, 13:30, and lastly 13:45. Surely this points to the stewards being swift in their decisions and most likely already have come to their decision already with so little time between each one?

Because they are not making those decisions now.. I think they will let them all off with a warning. Luckily for Carlos and Valteri, Max is in the same boat.
But also this delay is for the show and media interest.

If Max gets 5 places?:
LH
PG
FA
Lando
Yuki
Valteri
Max
Estaban
Seb
Carlos

Is that the case? Max’s hearing is at 1 so his 5 place demotion would drop him to 7th which would put Bottas into 2nd and following a 3-place penalty into 5th.

[cooken]

No need to overcomplicate it. Flags on the left, stopped car on the right. Every driver would've seen Gasly and most likely then immediately looked to the Marshall post to see if flags were out (or vice versa). Everyone who passed by and didn't slow down should be penalized, full stop.

[El Scorchio]

Okay, getting a bit tired of this discussion of HAM versus VER over past races, did anyone post this solid article from the race yet? Mark Hughes: The truth of Mercedes gains amid Red Bull claims

[At Losail] When we look at that in detail we see the Red Bull’s loss is 0.1s in Turn4/5, half-a-tenth in Turn 6, 0.2s between Turns 7-10 and half-a-tenth between Turns 11-16. The Red Bull tends to be a more front-limited car than the Mercedes, which is more rear-limited by comparison.

This generally reflects the differing aero balance and the way the two cars have to be set up to maximise their concepts. At front-limited tracks such as Hungaroring and Istanbul, the Red Bull tends to struggle. At rear-limited tracks such as Austin, the Mercedes is not at its best.

Coming into the Qatar weekend, the general expectation was that this track new to F1 would err towards being rear-limited. But as the weekend has progressed, it’s clear that it is actually front-limited, as Pirelli’s Mario Isola explains. “When I first saw the numbers yesterday [Friday] I assumed it was because teams were setting up their cars to protect the left-rear. But actually, that is not the case. After looking at it, it is genuinely the front-left which is taking the biggest strain.

“Some of these quick corners are loading the fronts up a lot – but also there are quite a lot of points on the track where you are braking into the corner. This is very hard on the fronts.”

The more the track has rubbered in, the more extreme this trait has become – and the more it seems to have moved towards Mercedes as a result. Half of Merc’s big lap time advantage here is from a better balance than the Red Bull, half from the superior straightline.

In a way, not unexpected, but I do recall discussion about exactly this in the run up to the race, hence I quoted that rather long bit.

It continues with a breakdown of pace differences over more events, which is interesting to read too as it suggests that while Merc took a big step between Mexico and Brazil, while Red Bull actually lost a bit, probably due to being front-limited (pace compared to the rest of the field, w/o either Red Bull or Merc).

That is a refreshing change and a good article actually providing reasoned explanation for relative performance, backed up by evidence rather than wacky conspiracy theory. This season has evolved in superb back and forth fashion so far.

[Noble29]

Good points regarding the application of any penalties. Presumably, from memory which is always a bit rough, the penalties are applied in the order they're given, and the grid is 'opened up to apply penalty to first driver, closed back up, grid is formed again, and is then reopened to apply the penalty to the 2nd driver who has a grid penalty, so on and so forth' - rather than opening the grid up, and applying all penalties at once and then closing up again once done. Not sure if that's still the process these days? And of course that's if anything comes of tomorrows meetings, which it should, but who knows these days.

[siskue2005]

Vettel “It’s a bit of a shame because I had the yellow flag in the last sector and then the yellow flag cleared, I guess, because Max was coming.”
https://www.racefans.net/2021/11/20/vet ... as-coming/


Is it this obvious now amongst everyone racing ?

[ringo]

The racing gods had Max's Brazil Penalty coming regardless of what the FIA ruled. He should have took the 3 place penalty in brazil or finish behind Bottas. Now he may get 5 places and start behind Bottas. Karma! as Alonso puts it.

[Incognito]

Good points regarding the application of any penalties. Presumably, from memory which is always a bit rough, the penalties are applied in the order they're given, and the grid is 'opened up to apply penalty to first driver, closed back up, grid is formed again, and is then reopened to apply the penalty to the 2nd driver who has a grid penalty, so on and so forth' - rather than opening the grid up, and applying all penalties at once and then closing up again once done. Not sure if that's still the process these days? And of course that's if anything comes of tomorrows meetings, which it should, but who knows these days.

I would expect it to be in order of infringement. Order of summons is open to manipulation (or at least the perception of it).

It might be possible that a 3-place would be good for Verstappen. The dirty side is probably really dirty. There's been at least one GP in recent memory where the cars on the dirty side of the grid barely moved relative to the clean side. Only hindsight will know for sure though.

[zibby43]

No document for Max yet

https://www.fia.com/documents/season/se ... ionship-14