2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

[Starkblood80]

Why should a race director not try and implement restart procedures? How would leaving the lapped cars in between the leading cars in a SC car period makes for the correct restart procedure? That doesn't make sense.

It's in the regulations as an option, and and in many series over the last several decades it's how it's been done.

What we have now in F1 and in other series is just an artificial situation to keep young fans engaged.

It's a well known fact that younger people don't care nearly as much about cars as previous generations, So to keep them engaged and shelling out money, garbage like this has been contrived.

Exercising Race Director's discretion is also available in the regulations, which Masi did. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't work. He and his team of stewards were under immense pressure and took a decision that seemed right, not to mention the unwanted pressure from the team principals. I wish there were robots sitting making data based decision, but it's not and it is what it is.

The race director can exercise his discretion providing what he does is within the regulations, which is not what happened yesterday.
I suspect you know all this anyway.

[Just_a_fan]

The stewards aren't involved in the SC procedure decisions. That's solely down to Masi.

I am not well aware, but I will take this.

The issue is that his over-riding primary concern seems to be that the race shouldn't finish behind the safety car. His secondary issue seems to be, from his own admission, that he wanted the two leading drivers to fight for the win. That's fine, but it wasn't a fight, it was a mugging. If he didn't want a SC finish and he did want a fight to the end, he should have red flagged the race and then restarted with a two lap dash to the lights. That would have been thrilling and equitable.

Why is it mugging? Mercedes had the option to pit and take the new set of tyres, like RB did. They didn't and RB did. Had Mercedes did that and taken the new softs and RB would have done the reverse to stay on track, it would have been Lewis doing what Max did. Why call missed calculation a mugging and blame FIA?

Because the rules as they stood at the time, with that number of laps remaining were that the race would either finish behind the SC or there would be cars between Max and Lewis. Either way, giving up track position would have been to give up the race. The rules were changed on the fly by the RD and a situation put in place that was outwith the rules and thus could not be planned for. Red Bull pitted because they couldn't lose from doing so. They were already second and the worst outcome was second. So it's an easy decision. Sorry, but that's just simple F1 Safety Car 101.

[siskue2005]

It's interesting what Ola has to say. Haven't heard anything from Daimler.

As for the lawyer's warning. What is the meaning of "overturning" here? What is the "overturned" position of a SC restart decision of a concluded race looks like. Surely, it can't be the order of 57th lap of a 58 lap race. That in itself a legally arguable case against such a decision. Why would the other party accept a shortned race's decision? The other party has to right to go ask for going back to the circuit and restart the race once again, from the point of the crash. It sounds weird, but anything can happen in a courtroom. Defendents can push for all sorts of arbitrations.

The last lap cannot be a green flag racing according to the rule... so it has to be a yellow flagged lap, so any positions gained in that lap is invalid and illegal.. .. hence the position gained by Max will revert back to the one he had on lap 57. So there is no shortening for the race, only changing finishing order which is perfectly possible

Race Director's decision overrides all rules. So it's a legal decision and stands. Then what is the next argument in court?

Race directors decision doesn't overrides ALL rules !

[jz11]

It’s not a strategic blunder because under no previous scenario would this have gone green with Max on his tail. ONLY way it could have is if Max had to start behind the lapped cars.

You can’t strategize when the rules are changed on the fly. That is the issue.

you dismissing the whole race before the SC, that is your mistake, read again what I wrote and think about how Mercedes strategists went about the race - they knew they had the pace advantage and decided on the kindergarten level strategy - which is to mirror the competitor, that led to Lewis losing all his time behind Perez and caused him problems with capitalizing on the VSC and SC periods, which ultimately led to the final result, I feel he would have a much better chance at the end despite the controversy which you and couple others seem to be completely locked into and forget about the rest of the race

[Scorpaguy]

Since it is not the 80's and it is not Nigel Mansell, I am rather "meh" about the whole thing. As for the psyche of the 2 drivers, I assume that Max feels that the best car/driver pairing was allowed to go mano e mano, sans lappers getting in the way; he made a fair pass and then fairly defended from a faster car...his team's strategy and driving skills thusly won him a WDC. He has no remorse.

Ham on the other hand likely feels that that F1 should be above "wild west shoot outs" and the lappers were part of a strategy to give him a buffer against the more aggressive/aggressively tyred Bull...and was blatantly robbed of the WDC, and that Max is not deserving.

It would have all been for naught had Max been backed off in Silverstone (or had Ham driven him off the track...whichever ilk you tend to be...again, I do not really care since there is no Tyrrell P34 on track). At the end of the day, Ham is still the GOAT and Max has a title. Let us hope that the new era brings more twists and turns that we can all bitch, piss, and moan about....maybe an updated Brabham BT46. God I love F1.

[Hoffman900]

It’s not a strategic blunder because under no previous scenario would this have gone green with Max on his tail. ONLY way it could have is if Max had to start behind the lapped cars.

You can’t strategize when the rules are changed on the fly. That is the issue.

you dismissing the whole race before the SC, that is your mistake, read again what I wrote and think about how Mercedes strategists went about the race - they knew they had the pace advantage and decided on the kindergarten level strategy - which is to mirror the competitor, that led to Lewis losing all his time behind Perez and caused him problems with capitalizing on the VSC and SC periods, which ultimately led to the final result, I feel he would have a much better chance at the end despite the controversy which you and couple others seem to be completely locked into and forget about the rest of the race

Lewis was going to cruise home comfortably. That’s good strategy. Likely it would have been around a 5s gap at the end and that’s not even close at an average speed of say, 130mph.

[Ryar]

The last lap cannot be a green flag racing according to the rule... so it has to be a yellow flagged lap, so any positions gained in that lap is invalid and illegal.. .. hence the position gained by Max will revert back to the one he had on lap 57. So there is no shortening for the race, only changing finishing order which is perfectly possible

Race Director's decision overrides all rules. So it's a legal decision and stands. Then what is the next argument in court?

It absolutely doesn’t. You would get laughed out of any court with that interpretation.

Article 15.3 provides overriding authority for a race director on the use of SC. It's part of Sporting Rules. FIA can decide to fire him by citing, "he acted on his own", but by virtue of having given that right and that having been exercised in his official capacity, the decision cannot be overturned.

[siskue2005]

Race Director's decision overrides all rules. So it's a legal decision and stands. Then what is the next argument in court?

It absolutely doesn’t. You would get laughed out of any court with that interpretation.

Article 15.3 provides overriding authority for a race director on the use of SC. It's part of Sporting Rules. FIA can decide to fire him by citing, "he acted on his own", but by virtue of having given that right and that having been exercised in his official capacity, the decision cannot be overturned.

Please post the exact rules here please

[jz11]

It’s not a strategic blunder because under no previous scenario would this have gone green with Max on his tail. ONLY way it could have is if Max had to start behind the lapped cars.

You can’t strategize when the rules are changed on the fly. That is the issue.

you dismissing the whole race before the SC, that is your mistake, read again what I wrote and think about how Mercedes strategists went about the race - they knew they had the pace advantage and decided on the kindergarten level strategy - which is to mirror the competitor, that led to Lewis losing all his time behind Perez and caused him problems with capitalizing on the VSC and SC periods, which ultimately led to the final result, I feel he would have a much better chance at the end despite the controversy which you and couple others seem to be completely locked into and forget about the rest of the race

Lewis was going to cruise home comfortably. That’s good strategy. Likely it would have been around a 5s gap at the end and that’s not even close at an average speed of say, 130mph.

he would have cruised even MORE comfortably had his 1st stint on meds been usual, and not cut short by fear of a Max magically undercutting him on a tire RB hadn't run all weekend, and when the race showed that he wouldn't be able to match Lewis on softs, Lewis would have been 100% safe and had options for VSC and SC periods

and I'm not defending Masi, I've said as much, but it wasn't the only problem Lewis had on his hands, I've said it few times before, Merc strategists are not even remotely on level with others, they constantly make these mistakes and then Lewis pulls another magical performance and people forget about these things, this time it went all wrong for him, he couldn't do anything on 2!!! safety car periods because of that mistake shortening the 1st stint and losing all his advantage behind Perez

[Just_a_fan]

Race Director's decision overrides all rules. So it's a legal decision and stands. Then what is the next argument in court?

It absolutely doesn’t. You would get laughed out of any court with that interpretation.

Article 15.3 provides overriding authority for a race director on the use of SC. It's part of Sporting Rules. FIA can decide to fire him by citing, "he acted on his own", but by virtue of having given that right and that having been exercised in his official capacity, the decision cannot be overturned.

The rules don't allow the RD to make up things on the fly. He has authority to apply the rules as he sees fit. He didn't because what he did do was not in the rules. To say otherwise is to just replace the entire set of SC rules with one new rule: the RD will do what he wants with the SC when he wants and however he he wants. Which is, of course, entirely untenable because it opens up the very real possibility that the RD can be unduly influenced by external actors.

[Ryar]

It absolutely doesn’t. You would get laughed out of any court with that interpretation.

Article 15.3 provides overriding authority for a race director on the use of SC. It's part of Sporting Rules. FIA can decide to fire him by citing, "he acted on his own", but by virtue of having given that right and that having been exercised in his official capacity, the decision cannot be overturned.

The rules don't allow the RD to make up things on the fly. He has authority to apply the rules as he sees fit. He didn't because what he did do was not in the rules. To say otherwise is to just replace the entire set of SC rules with one new rule: the RD will do what he wants with the SC when he wants and however he he wants. Which is, of course, entirely untenable because it opens up the very real possibility that the RD can be unduly influenced by external actors.

Rules are words that can be interpreted for convenience by wise men in the suits! To that extent, FIA rules are famously written vague and provide various overriding sub parts and gaping holes. If not for that, how do you think F1 engineers could have managed to find loop holes in those. If FIA wants to defend themselves, as part of defending their RD, it wouldn't be that hard.

[dans79]

Article 15.3 provides overriding authority for a race director on the use of SC. It's part of Sporting Rules. FIA can decide to fire him by citing, "he acted on his own", but by virtue of having given that right and that having been exercised in his official capacity, the decision cannot be overturned.

The rules don't allow the RD to make up things on the fly. He has authority to apply the rules as he sees fit. He didn't because what he did do was not in the rules. To say otherwise is to just replace the entire set of SC rules with one new rule: the RD will do what he wants with the SC when he wants and however he he wants. Which is, of course, entirely untenable because it opens up the very real possibility that the RD can be unduly influenced by external actors.

Rules are words that can be interpreted for convenience by wise men in the suits! To that extent, FIA rules are famously written vague and provide various overriding sub parts and gaping holes. If not for that, how do you think F1 engineers could have managed to find loop holes in those. If FIA wants to defend themselves, as part of defending their RD, it wouldn't be that hard.

Doesn't mater in the ICA, as the the RD's own comments on the matter will ger torn apart and used against him!

[siskue2005]

you dismissing the whole race before the SC, that is your mistake, read again what I wrote and think about how Mercedes strategists went about the race - they knew they had the pace advantage and decided on the kindergarten level strategy - which is to mirror the competitor, that led to Lewis losing all his time behind Perez and caused him problems with capitalizing on the VSC and SC periods, which ultimately led to the final result, I feel he would have a much better chance at the end despite the controversy which you and couple others seem to be completely locked into and forget about the rest of the race

Lewis was going to cruise home comfortably. That’s good strategy. Likely it would have been around a 5s gap at the end and that’s not even close at an average speed of say, 130mph.

he would have cruised even MORE comfortably had his 1st stint on meds been usual, and not cut short by fear of a Max magically undercutting him on a tire RB hadn't run all weekend, and when the race showed that he wouldn't be able to match Lewis on softs, Lewis would have been 100% safe and had options for VSC and SC periods

and I'm not defending Masi, I've said as much, but it wasn't the only problem Lewis had on his hands, I've said it few times before, Merc strategists are not even remotely on level with others, they constantly make these mistakes and then Lewis pulls another magical performance and people forget about these things, this time it went all wrong for him, he couldn't do anything on 2!!! safety car periods because of that mistake shortening the 1st stint and losing all his advantage behind Perez

I somewhat agree... at the end of the first VSC, they could have pitted Lewis as Max was 24 sec behind after his second stop..... I was thinking why they didn't pit, if they had put mediums then he could have got atleast 17 to 18 sec gap which was enough for sc buffer

[Just_a_fan]

Article 15.3 provides overriding authority for a race director on the use of SC. It's part of Sporting Rules. FIA can decide to fire him by citing, "he acted on his own", but by virtue of having given that right and that having been exercised in his official capacity, the decision cannot be overturned.

The rules don't allow the RD to make up things on the fly. He has authority to apply the rules as he sees fit. He didn't because what he did do was not in the rules. To say otherwise is to just replace the entire set of SC rules with one new rule: the RD will do what he wants with the SC when he wants and however he he wants. Which is, of course, entirely untenable because it opens up the very real possibility that the RD can be unduly influenced by external actors.

Rules are words that can be interpreted for convenience by wise men in the suits! To that extent, FIA rules are famously written vague and provide various overriding sub parts and gaping holes. If not for that, how do you think F1 engineers could have managed to find loop holes in those. If FIA wants to defend themselves, as part of defending their RD, it wouldn't be that hard.

When the rules affect outcomes worth many millions of pounds, people much richer than the FIA can bring a lot of suits to the party.

[Hoffman900]

you dismissing the whole race before the SC, that is your mistake, read again what I wrote and think about how Mercedes strategists went about the race - they knew they had the pace advantage and decided on the kindergarten level strategy - which is to mirror the competitor, that led to Lewis losing all his time behind Perez and caused him problems with capitalizing on the VSC and SC periods, which ultimately led to the final result, I feel he would have a much better chance at the end despite the controversy which you and couple others seem to be completely locked into and forget about the rest of the race

Lewis was going to cruise home comfortably. That’s good strategy. Likely it would have been around a 5s gap at the end and that’s not even close at an average speed of say, 130mph.

he would have cruised even MORE comfortably had his 1st stint on meds been usual, and not cut short by fear of a Max magically undercutting him on a tire RB hadn't run all weekend, and when the race showed that he wouldn't be able to match Lewis on softs, Lewis would have been 100% safe and had options for VSC and SC periods

and I'm not defending Masi, I've said as much, but it wasn't the only problem Lewis had on his hands, I've said it few times before, Merc strategists are not even remotely on level with others, they constantly make these mistakes and then Lewis pulls another magical performance and people forget about these things, this time it went all wrong for him, he couldn't do anything on 2!!! safety car periods because of that mistake shortening the 1st stint and losing all his advantage behind Perez

I agree with that Merc’s strategists aren’t the best and they rely on Lewis to bail them out, but what came before doesn’t matter. If the rules were applied as written, Lewis very likely wins barring something crazy. They weren’t applied as written and Merc’s strategy isn’t designed around scenarios where the RD makes up rules.