2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

[dans79]

FIA and their personnel, regardless if they made a mistake or not, should not allow themselves to be ordered or bullied by any participant.

When they don't apply the rules properly they should be fired!

[Just_a_fan]

I must admit I´m a bad person, as I´m even a bit pleased of this. Now Lewis knows how Alonso felt in 2007

I know why you're referencing Alonso there, but the real comparison should be with Massa in 2008. He'd "won" the title for half a lap before the last corner pass by Hamilton to gain the necessary extra place. That's effectively what Lewis had on Sunday. He'd "won" the title until the last lap.

2007 was nothing like the 2021 season. 2016 maybe was if you want to press the idea that the "team and team mate robbed him" angle.

Note: I don't think 2016 was a team robbing a driver of the title. It was unfortunately a single extra DNF that could easily have been the other way round.

[Bill_Kar]

I also do not see a real argument on the other side. Just look down to today and what is left today is some nonsense on Ferrari drivers on chewed up rubber.

There is a very specific argument and you are attacking a straw man.

The reasoning for the Wild West one lap shootout is because Masi didn't want the race to finish under SC but under Green flag conditions.

I respect that, BUT, why we want racing between MV and LH and not between Sainz and the two leaders? What does it have to do with the fact that he was on chewed rubber? Sainz was hindered by the fact that he had two lapped cars in front of him and the Alphas were coming behind him chasing for a PODIUM. Are you sure he wasn't hindered? Are you sure he couldn't overtake Hamilton -also on chewed rubber-?

Why Ricciardo wasn't allowed to fight with Vettel? Give me a single reason why you can choose some guys to fight and tie the hands of some other guys. What is the criterion? In reality, there is none, but I really want you to answer me with a reasoning.

- Ham and Bono clearly expected THIS situation. You can clearly hear this on the team radio.

Mention exactly what was said regarding this. Because, when LH crossed the line and entered lap number 57, the race was OVER if you are following the rules. Nobody could predict the amazing creative mind of Masi.
Of course, it was obvious in the beginning that this would end behind SC, 4 laps, wreckage on track.
But not for one minute can you blame Mercedes for not giving track position anyway.

Once more: Hamilton enters lap 57, the race finishes behind a SC. Hamilton is WDC. That is stated in the rules, period.

- Every one who got the "no unlapping" call was like "WTF???". Just hear the Alonso team radio.

Agreed. But, no unlapping would be legal under these sporting regulations and the race, legally, could start for one more lap. Legal and "in accordance with rules" is really key here.

You have selective memory, though. Because the reason that the "no unlapping" order was given in the first place was because Masi realized ,at first, that there is no chance for the track to be cleared of marshalls, and the backmarkers make their way around, and the extra lap that is needed under 48.12 AND in the same time have green flag conditions even for a single lap.

Suddenly, then, lap 57, he changes his mind and gives a signal that SC is in this lap, in SECTOR 3 !! because he is desperate, and produces an absolute travesty.

I am not very happy that we see a no show of Merc Vs RedBull and I really not care who wins besides the fact the Merc is responsible for this unfair rules. This whole F1 with the ugly engine rules is a highly unfair scenario crying for fairness now by Merc fans or the Merc team is the most brazen thing I can imagine.

See? You already prove my point, spouting irrelevant opinion on the general state of the hybrid era, this is a discussion that we can make any day, sure, but now we are talking about the Abu Dhabi GP.

[DChemTech]

Was it all clean? No.
Was there any driver at fault? No.
Is it fair that a driver get punished for that? No.
I believe everyone agrees to the above statements, so can the people that cry for Verstappen to have his title removed, explain how that would be fair?
There is no turning back once the race is over. If by any chance, some court and some lawyers overturn this result, it would mean the end of F1 as we know it.
Toto must go, not Massi. FIA and their personnel, regardless if they made a mistake or not, should not allow themselves to be ordered or bullied by any participant.

How is it fair the title was given on the whim of the RD ignore set rules and making up on the fly? Is it Lewis fault he got this wrong and handed the title to Max.

At this moment in time F1 is worthless and pretty much the end, as the RD can decide the champion on whim.

So Toto, should go but not Horner who asked the RD for one more lap?

Once again, the championship does not equal a single lap and is not decided by a single incident in isolation. It plays out over a full season.

[diffuser]

FIA and their personnel, regardless if they made a mistake or not, should not allow themselves to be ordered or bullied by any participant.

When they don't apply the rules properly they should be fired!

The problem again here isn't so much Masi as it is the rules giving the him opportunity to make this mistake. The option he choose shouldn't have been on the table as a possible option. It should be either no cars through or all cars through. Should he have seen that option was unfair? Yes.

[Hoffman900]

I also see people calling it the Americanization of the sport. NASCAR is more subtle about it though. They would have red flagged it, made it a two lap shootout on fresh tires, hoped Max and Lewis crash, that leaves Max the winner, Carlos potentially wins his first race, and Ferrari wins the season finale.

Liberty sits back and says “well that was crazy!” and cashes in on all those storylines.

The trick is to cause chaos, not rig it. The Americans do that better (speaking as one).

[Bill_Kar]

I also see people calling it the Americanization of the sport. NASCAR is more subtle about it though. They would have red flagged it, made it a two lap shootout on fresh tires, hoped Max and Lewis crash, that leaves Max the winner, Carlos potentially wins his first race, and Ferrari wins the season finale.

Liberty sits back and says “well that was crazy!” and cashes in on all those storylines.

The trick is to cause chaos, not rig it. The Americans do that better (speaking as one).

Yeah, I remember someone called me out on this, and I apologize. Americans are better than this mess

[illario]

Race director decided in what way should the race end, that is, not with safety car. His duties are to mentain a safe race. He does not decide what is fair, and who deserves to get a chance and in what case. I thought that the general consensus after SA was that the last race should not end in the offices but on track. Masi finished the race in his office, in a way he thought would be more beautiful for photojournalists and TV. That is not his competence.

[Just_a_fan]

Was it all clean? No.
Was there any driver at fault? No.
Is it fair that a driver get punished for that? No.
I believe everyone agrees to the above statements, so can the people that cry for Verstappen to have his title removed, explain how that would be fair?
There is no turning back once the race is over. If by any chance, some court and some lawyers overturn this result, it would mean the end of F1 as we know it.
Toto must go, not Massi. FIA and their personnel, regardless if they made a mistake or not, should not allow themselves to be ordered or bullied by any participant.

How is it fair the title was given on the whim of the RD ignore set rules and making up on the fly? Is it Lewis fault he got this wrong and handed the title to Max.

At this moment in time F1 is worthless and pretty much the end, as the RD can decide the champion on whim.

So Toto, should go but not Horner who asked the RD for one more lap?

Once again, the championship does not equal a single lap and is not decided by a single incident in isolation. It plays out over a full season.

Yes, it does. And over a full season Max and Lewis tied on points before the final race. The final race decided the title. The final lap decided the final race. And the final lap was entirely the opposite of all of the laps leading up to it. If Max had been leading like Lewis was and then benefitted from a left-field RD call, I don't think anyone would have minded. But he wasn't. He'd been thoroughly beaten right up until the SC came out. Lewis was lapping at the same pace as a guy on fresher rubber, even through the traffic he didn't lose much. So right up until Masi made his unprecedented call to place Max on Lewis's tail with new rubber, Max had lost the title. That's the straight up truth of the matter. That call decided the title, not anything done by the teams or their drivers during the full season. That's what is so unsavoury about it.

It's a shame for Max. And it's shame for Lewis. And it's a shame for any fans of F1 as a contest between cars and drivers on track.

[Just_a_fan]

The trick is to cause chaos, not rig it. The Americans do that better (speaking as one).

Now that's a leading line that could take us down a whole rabbit hole of fun and stuff.

[Hoffman900]

The trick is to cause chaos, not rig it. The Americans do that better (speaking as one).

Now that's a leading line that could take us down a whole rabbit hole of fun and stuff.

Most of us are self aware enough to know we’re good at that

[outer_bongolia]

Let’s face it, Masi tried to solve the trolley dilemma.

By wanting to give Max a fighting chance he forced Lewis to lose the race and WDC.
By not wanting to have Lewis win the race and title under safety car he made the division he did.

Is there any legal precedent for that trolley problem?

If they really wanted to have a shootout for the tv, there was a simple solution: Red flag the session and do a standing start. That would have given Ham a fighting chance.

Succumbing to what Horner demanded handed RB the win.

[DChemTech]

How is it fair the title was given on the whim of the RD ignore set rules and making up on the fly? Is it Lewis fault he got this wrong and handed the title to Max.

At this moment in time F1 is worthless and pretty much the end, as the RD can decide the champion on whim.

So Toto, should go but not Horner who asked the RD for one more lap?

Once again, the championship does not equal a single lap and is not decided by a single incident in isolation. It plays out over a full season.

Yes, it does. And over a full season Max and Lewis tied on points before the final race. The final race decided the title. The final lap decided the final race. And the final lap was entirely the opposite of all of the laps leading up to it. If Max had been leading like Lewis was and then benefitted from a left-field RD call, I don't think anyone would have minded. But he wasn't. He'd been thoroughly beaten right up until the SC came out. Lewis was lapping at the same pace as a guy on fresher rubber, even through the traffic he didn't lose much. So right up until Masi made his unprecedented call to place Max on Lewis's tail with new rubber, Max had lost the title. That's the straight up truth of the matter. That call decided the title, not anything done by the teams or their drivers during the full season. That's what is so unsavoury about it.

It's a shame for Max. And it's shame for Lewis. And it's a shame for any fans of F1 as a contest between cars and drivers on track.

No it doesn't. If this situation, for whatever reason, had played out in the very first race rather than the very last, and that just gave Max enough of a lead to stay ahead in the end, it would have had exactly as much influence on the championship as it has now. Just as much as some other earlier decisions have influenced the championship. One cannot isolate a single event and pinpoint that as being the single thing handing the championship to whoever wins it. It is the cumulative effect of all decisions and events. From the liberal interpretation of track limits in Bahrain favoring Lewis, to the liberal interpretation of SC rules benefiting Max. The issue with this season is not that one team was handed the victory by a single decision. The issue is that there have been various disputable decisions and rule changes that affected the overall outcome, regardless of who won, and that tainted the outcome of this season in general. And that needs to be fixed, regardless of whether one roots for RB or MB.

[Starkblood80]

Article 15.3 provides overriding authority for a race director on the use of SC. It's part of Sporting Rules. FIA can decide to fire him by citing, "he acted on his own", but by virtue of having given that right and that having been exercised in his official capacity, the decision cannot be overturned.

The rules don't allow the RD to make up things on the fly. He has authority to apply the rules as he sees fit. He didn't because what he did do was not in the rules. To say otherwise is to just replace the entire set of SC rules with one new rule: the RD will do what he wants with the SC when he wants and however he he wants. Which is, of course, entirely untenable because it opens up the very real possibility that the RD can be unduly influenced by external actors.

It was in the rules, because the specific message "LAPPED CARS MAY NOW OVERTAKE" wasn't sent to the teams but instead a message saying that specific cars can over take. So Rule 48.12 is totally irrelevant in this case, and the safety car did not need to wait until the end of the following lap to come in.

And you think there’s no problem with that? Where in the regulations does it say the RD has authority to select which cars specifically are allowed to unlap themselves?

[Just_a_fan]

Once again, the championship does not equal a single lap and is not decided by a single incident in isolation. It plays out over a full season.

Yes, it does. And over a full season Max and Lewis tied on points before the final race. The final race decided the title. The final lap decided the final race. And the final lap was entirely the opposite of all of the laps leading up to it. If Max had been leading like Lewis was and then benefitted from a left-field RD call, I don't think anyone would have minded. But he wasn't. He'd been thoroughly beaten right up until the SC came out. Lewis was lapping at the same pace as a guy on fresher rubber, even through the traffic he didn't lose much. So right up until Masi made his unprecedented call to place Max on Lewis's tail with new rubber, Max had lost the title. That's the straight up truth of the matter. That call decided the title, not anything done by the teams or their drivers during the full season. That's what is so unsavoury about it.

It's a shame for Max. And it's shame for Lewis. And it's a shame for any fans of F1 as a contest between cars and drivers on track.

No it doesn't. If this situation, for whatever reason, had played out in the very first race rather than the very last, and that just gave Max enough of a lead to stay ahead in the end, it would have had exactly as much influence on the championship as it has now. Just as much as some other earlier decisions have influenced the championship. One cannot isolate a single event and pinpoint that as being the single thing handing the championship to whoever wins it. It is the cumulative effect of all decisions and events. From the liberal interpretation of track limits in Bahrain favoring Lewis, to the liberal interpretation of SC rules benefiting Max. The issue with this season is not that one team was handed the victory by a single decision. The issue is that there have been various disputable decisions and rule changes that affected the overall outcome, regardless of who won, and that tainted the outcome of this season in general. And that needs to be fixed, regardless of whether one roots for RB or MB.

I see what you mean, but a decision at the beginning of the season has much less of an effect on the result because there is time to overcome the deficit. Indeed, after the first race of the season, who was leading the title standings? And did the other manage to overcome that deficit? Why, yes, he did.

The thing with this season is that the decisions and performances basically evened out and we had a tied points situation in the final race. Any decisions made then can not be overcome. There is no way that the arbitrary decision made by Masi can be overcome at a subsequent race because there is no subsequent race. And thus the season came down to one race, and that race came down to one decision that led to a single lap that was, effectively, impossible to win for one of the competitors.

It's the decision that's the problem for me. Max has won the title and I'm happy for him to have done so. I'm just unhappy with the way the race director - the referee of the competition - changed the rules as they have been applied to that point. That's just wrong on all levels, irrespective of who you do or don't support.