2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

[pantherxxx]

The stewards were never going to say otherwise and even then they admitted the rule was never properly applied .
On top of that the way they interpreted the rule is wrong.the race director has authority over the clerck and when to call or discard the safety car ...not that nonsense he came up with
Today you say Hamilton's fans are salty, the sake thing will happen to your favourite driver
or team and you'll be here saying otherwise. If formula one is to become WWE style of show , I want no part in it.

How do you know they interpreted the rule wrongly? What if you interpreted it wrongly?
This whole thing about the safety car in next lap is in rule 48.12. But that's irrelevant because the "lapped cars may now overtake" message was never shown, so 48.12 doesn't apply. As unfair as it may seem, Masi technically didn't break any rules with regards to only letting a few cars unlap themselves, and not waiting an extra lap to bring in the SC.

The message was displayed on the world feed through ESPN, so rule 48.12 does apply. As I’ve said the lapped cars that did go around Norris was just entering turn 3 and vettel was still entering turn one when Hamilton took off for green flag conditions

Nope that specific message was not sent to anyone. Because they only allowed 5 lapped cars to overtake, not just "lapped cars".

[west52keep64]

What I do genuinely hope though is that they’re going to make a good step for next year and sort their own house out. This year has uncovered a plethora of inconsistencies and farcical situations which have pissed literally everyone off regardless of who you support. (Besides the casual fan base, of which they attracted 10s of millions, no question).

100% agree on this, it's clear something needs to change for 2022. I'm sick of every race involving endless debate about how the rules are interpreted. The FIA needs to define a clear rulebook, and stick to it. If the next generation F1 cars deliver on the promise of closer racing, we are only going to see more of these issues next year unless the FIA move to make changes.

[kenshi_blind]

The stewards were never going to say otherwise and even then they admitted the rule was never properly applied .
On top of that the way they interpreted the rule is wrong.the race director has authority over the clerck and when to call or discard the safety car ...not that nonsense he came up with
Today you say Hamilton's fans are salty, the sake thing will happen to your favourite driver
or team and you'll be here saying otherwise. If formula one is to become WWE style of show , I want no part in it.

How do you know they interpreted the rule wrongly? What if you interpreted it wrongly?
This whole thing about the safety car in next lap is in rule 48.12. But that's irrelevant because the "lapped cars may now overtake" message was never shown, so 48.12 doesn't apply. As unfair as it may seem, Masi technically didn't break any rules with regards to only letting a few cars unlap themselves, and not waiting an extra lap to bring in the SC.

The message was displayed on the world feed through ESPN, so rule 48.12 does apply. As I’ve said the lapped cars that did go around Norris was just entering turn 3 and vettel was still entering turn one when Hamilton took off for green flag conditions

Well my answer might not be what you expect but it is simple as reading the rule, the wording in the rule does not compute with the half assed explanation the stewards came up with
Also
https://www.racefans.net/2021/12/14/mer ... gp-lawyer/

[DrDejan]

Exactly that. Watching live on lap 56, it was clear that there's no way there was time for the cars to all unlap properly and for the final mandated SC lap to take place, before the end of the race distance, given the regulations. At that point was where Masi should have evaluated his TWO options as per the regulations and chosen one of them rather than dreaming up and actioning an until-then-non-existent third possible option/scenario/farce, which is what ended up happening.

What I don't understand, is why was it so goddamn important to finish under green flags instead of under safety car?

The least controversial option there was to finish under the safety car with the positions in place, because that's what it would have been according to the procedures in place. Before the crash and safety car, the race was pretty much done and dusted and there was little chance for Verstappen anyway. Wanting that last lap action, a potential red flag and standing restart is just from people who's driver either wasn't leading or who didn't realize that we had a 50+ lap race already that just unfolded with Mercedes/Hamilton doing the better job.

If Max had led the race start from finish, I guess as a Hamilton fan I'd be disappointed, but it would have been the correct and predictable result. They did the better job during qualifying, maximized everything and presumably won the race. It usually happens this way.

Not on Sunday: Mercedes seemingly had a quicker race car, Hamilton had the better start and he drove off into the distance.Then RedBull tried something different on strategy and it was a great race on who's strategy would prevail to the end; Would Hamiltons 1-stop race get him to the end? Would the tires drop off? Would he, if it'd be close, have enough in the tires to defend his position? That was the race.

I don't get this "red flag standing start" suggestions or even the wish to have a race on the last lap for the show because it takes away from the actual race that we had and got.

If the crash had happened earlier and RedBull ended up on the better tire? Tough luck. I don't believe for a second this race should have been treated any different than any other race on the calendar, championship deciding or not. Sometimes the chips just fall the way they do. But breaking protocol to manufacture a last lap race just between the top two drivers (because that's all there was, because the other cars didn't unlap)... it's artificial and really takes away from a great race we had before that point. And given how it played out, it wasn't fair either.

It’s not. This season there was a race that started and ended under a safety car. Zero laps racing.
It’s the same lame excuse as “let them race” or “different stewards will judge similar incidents differently”, to justify inconsistent application of rules and artificial suspense build up.

[101FlyingDutchman]

Exactly that. Watching live on lap 56, it was clear that there's no way there was time for the cars to all unlap properly and for the final mandated SC lap to take place, before the end of the race distance, given the regulations. At that point was where Masi should have evaluated his TWO options as per the regulations and chosen one of them rather than dreaming up and actioning an until-then-non-existent third possible option/scenario/farce, which is what ended up happening.

What I don't understand, is why was it so goddamn important to finish under green flags instead of under safety car?

The least controversial option there was to finish under the safety car with the positions in place, because that's what it would have been according to the procedures in place. Before the crash and safety car, the race was pretty much done and dusted and there was little chance for Verstappen anyway. Wanting that last lap action, a potential red flag and standing restart is just from people who's driver either wasn't leading or who didn't realize that we had a 50+ lap race already that just unfolded with Mercedes/Hamilton doing the better job.

If Max had led the race start from finish, I guess as a Hamilton fan I'd be disappointed, but it would have been the correct and predictable result. They did the better job during qualifying, maximized everything and presumably won the race. It usually happens this way.

Not on Sunday: Mercedes seemingly had a quicker race car, Hamilton had the better start and he drove off into the distance.Then RedBull tried something different on strategy and it was a great race on who's strategy would prevail to the end; Would Hamiltons 1-stop race get him to the end? Would the tires drop off? Would he, if it'd be close, have enough in the tires to defend his position? That was the race.

I don't get this "red flag standing start" suggestions or even the wish to have a race on the last lap for the show because it takes away from the actual race that we had and got.

If the crash had happened earlier and RedBull ended up on the better tire? Tough luck. I don't believe for a second this race should have been treated any different than any other race on the calendar, championship deciding or not. Sometimes the chips just fall the way they do. But breaking protocol to manufacture a last lap race just between the top two drivers (because that's all there was, because the other cars didn't unlap)... it's artificial and really takes away from a great race we had before that point. And given how it played out, it wasn't fair either.

It’s not. This season there was a race that started and ended under a safety car. Zero laps racing.
It’s the same lame excuse as “let them race” or “different stewards will judge similar incidents differently”, to justify inconsistent application of rules and artificial suspense build up.

That’s absolutely not a lame excuse. They have had official FIA/team discussions wrt “let them race” , and also to try and finish where possible in Green race conditions. Equally we have seen different stewarding decisions based on who were the stewards on duty that weekend

Calling them lame excuses, is just that, lame…
What all of this highlights is the glaring inconsistency on all levels within the FIA. It needs sorting. If that means different people at the helm then so be it but as a keen follower of motor racing, I’d get totally fed up if we have another season like this. Where every race I hold my hands up and go, what have they done now….
Not for me if it stays a circus of that magnitude

[pantherxxx]

How do you know they interpreted the rule wrongly? What if you interpreted it wrongly?
This whole thing about the safety car in next lap is in rule 48.12. But that's irrelevant because the "lapped cars may now overtake" message was never shown, so 48.12 doesn't apply. As unfair as it may seem, Masi technically didn't break any rules with regards to only letting a few cars unlap themselves, and not waiting an extra lap to bring in the SC.

The message was displayed on the world feed through ESPN, so rule 48.12 does apply. As I’ve said the lapped cars that did go around Norris was just entering turn 3 and vettel was still entering turn one when Hamilton took off for green flag conditions

Well my answer might not be what you expect but it is simple as reading the rule, the wording in the rule does not compute with the half assed explanation the stewards came up with
Also
https://www.racefans.net/2021/12/14/mer ... gp-lawyer/

That lawyer is from the UK he is clearly biased. They don't have a good standing at a court, because first of all, CAS doesn't even have jurisdiction over the FIA, second even if they say that the last lap was invalid, that would shorten the race retrospectively, and hence not appropriate. With just 57 laps, this would not be a race according to the 2021 F1 Sporting Regulations, which requires a race to be at least 305km.

[DrDejan]

Wow. Most of these posts now are just salty HAM fans. I get it. I’m also not happy with the handling but the stewards have decided that the race director stayed within his remit. Now the FIA will investigate the FIA. Nothing will come from that other than a face saving exercise. What I do genuinely hope though is that they’re going to make a good step for next year and sort their own house out. This year has uncovered a plethora of inconsistencies and farcical situations which have pissed literally everyone off regardless of who you support. (Besides the casual fan base, of which they attracted 10s of millions, no question).

You can argue your stuff until you’re blue in the face. Max fans have over the season when they felt totally robbed and vice versa.

HAM seems to have accepted his fate. And I have HUGE respect and admiration for how he handled himself sunday. Also his dad is a total class act. Wasn’t a fan but I can admire his on track skill and clearly good morals.

Maybe most of the posts are by someone’s fans, but there are many who genuinely appreciate and enjoy the sport and want to understand what happened, not just at the last race but throughout the season. On top of it, every F1 team want to know what are the rules of engagement, because they need them for future decisions.
I personally don’t expect F1 governing body to respond to my questions, but if they want my money they should better provide explanation/transparency about the season, starting with the last race.

[Tom145145]

The message was displayed on the world feed through ESPN, so rule 48.12 does apply. As I’ve said the lapped cars that did go around Norris was just entering turn 3 and vettel was still entering turn one when Hamilton took off for green flag conditions

Well my answer might not be what you expect but it is simple as reading the rule, the wording in the rule does not compute with the half assed explanation the stewards came up with
Also
https://www.racefans.net/2021/12/14/mer ... gp-lawyer/

That lawyer is from the UK he is clearly biased. They don't have a good standing at a court, because first of all, CAS doesn't even have jurisdiction over the FIA, second even if they say that the last lap was invalid, that would shorten the race retrospectively, and hence not appropriate. With just 57 laps, this would not be a race according to the 2021 F1 Sporting Regulations, which requires a race to be at least 305km.

I don’t know why the lawyers nationality matters but ok. Are you aware that they use a system of count back to shorten the race if a red flag ends the race early? This happened in Brazil 2003, this shortened the race by a number of laps and they also called the incorrect winner on the day, this was corrected days after. If the total race distance were fixed how would you explain this example and SPA this year?

[langedweil]

Red Bull didn't have a stroke of genius with their pit stop. They had a free stop available because there was no threat from behind. So it was the obvious choice to make once Mercedes didn't pit. It was an entirely free stop. Mercedes did not have the option. They couldn't pit - assuming the written SC procedure was followed - without losing the race.

I just feel a lot is filled in by following hindsight logic. Point is that at the time the SC call was made, MB was simply forced into a decision; one they didn't expect. They could not possibly know the lenghth of it by then, only guess based on historical data. Logically they picked the option to stay out (TP = king), most likely with full understanding RB would go the opposite direction. And by then they could only hope to finish behind a SC. I say hope, because it simply could not be known at the time of the decision.
It would have been just as weird to not allow lapped cars to pass, that would feel the exact same for RB. Imola would have had quite a different outcome as well by those lines.
I just don't really buy the 'gifting the WDC' part; that is just sentiment (fully understandable though, but it is).

[langedweil]

Mercedes/Hamilton did not lose the championship in Abu Dhabi, they lost it in Monaco, Baku and Hungary.

Agreed, that's the baseline ..

[timorous]

Red Bull didn't have a stroke of genius with their pit stop. They had a free stop available because there was no threat from behind. So it was the obvious choice to make once Mercedes didn't pit. It was an entirely free stop. Mercedes did not have the option. They couldn't pit - assuming the written SC procedure was followed - without losing the race.

I just feel a lot is filled in by following hindsight logic. Point is that at the time the SC call was made, MB was simply forced into a decision; one they didn't expect. They could not possibly know the lenghth of it by then, only guess based on historical data. Logically they picked the option to stay out (TP = king), most likely with full understanding RB would go the opposite direction. And by then they could only hope to finish behind a SC. I say hope, because it simply could not be known at the time of the decision.
It would have been just as weird to not allow lapped cars to pass, that would feel the exact same for RB. Imola would have had quite a different outcome as well by those lines.
I just don't really buy the 'gifting the WDC' part; that is just sentiment (fully understandable though, but it is).

Masi could have followed 48.12 to the letter, let the lapped cars pass and then finish behind the SC. While I am sure Horner and Max would be livid with such an outcome there would be no way they could point to Masi and say he did anything improper. At worst they could say he did not act fast enough but with images of Stroll going past marshals and a crane on the track after pitting and catching the tail of the pack up it is really hard to say that anything could have moved faster and in fact it should have been done more slowly to ensure the safety of drivers and marshals.

[El Scorchio]

The message was displayed on the world feed through ESPN, so rule 48.12 does apply. As I’ve said the lapped cars that did go around Norris was just entering turn 3 and vettel was still entering turn one when Hamilton took off for green flag conditions

Well my answer might not be what you expect but it is simple as reading the rule, the wording in the rule does not compute with the half assed explanation the stewards came up with
Also
https://www.racefans.net/2021/12/14/mer ... gp-lawyer/

That lawyer is from the UK he is clearly biased. They don't have a good standing at a court, because first of all, CAS doesn't even have jurisdiction over the FIA, second even if they say that the last lap was invalid, that would shorten the race retrospectively, and hence not appropriate. With just 57 laps, this would not be a race according to the 2021 F1 Sporting Regulations, which requires a race to be at least 305km.

The only loyalty lawyers have is to who is filling their bank balance. To suggest he’s biased purely on his nationality is very silly and it just didn’t need saying. Besides which, plenty of British people don’t like Hamilton anyway.

[Roo]

The message was displayed on the world feed through ESPN, so rule 48.12 does apply. As I’ve said the lapped cars that did go around Norris was just entering turn 3 and vettel was still entering turn one when Hamilton took off for green flag conditions

Well my answer might not be what you expect but it is simple as reading the rule, the wording in the rule does not compute with the half assed explanation the stewards came up with
Also
https://www.racefans.net/2021/12/14/mer ... gp-lawyer/

That lawyer is from the UK he is clearly biased. They don't have a good standing at a court, because first of all, CAS doesn't even have jurisdiction over the FIA, second even if they say that the last lap was invalid, that would shorten the race retrospectively, and hence not appropriate. With just 57 laps, this would not be a race according to the 2021 F1 Sporting Regulations, which requires a race to be at least 305km.

The WDC is uncertain until legal processes have been exhausted.

[Roo]

Mercedes/Hamilton did not lose the championship in Abu Dhabi, they lost it in Monaco, Baku and Hungary.

Agreed, that's the baseline ..

The baseline for Abu Dhabi was equal points, anything else is whatever imaginations wishes to construct

[Tom145145]

Red Bull didn't have a stroke of genius with their pit stop. They had a free stop available because there was no threat from behind. So it was the obvious choice to make once Mercedes didn't pit. It was an entirely free stop. Mercedes did not have the option. They couldn't pit - assuming the written SC procedure was followed - without losing the race.

I just feel a lot is filled in by following hindsight logic. Point is that at the time the SC call was made, MB was simply forced into a decision; one they didn't expect. They could not possibly know the lenghth of it by then, only guess based on historical data. Logically they picked the option to stay out (TP = king), most likely with full understanding RB would go the opposite direction. And by then they could only hope to finish behind a SC. I say hope, because it simply could not be known at the time of the decision.
It would have been just as weird to not allow lapped cars to pass, that would feel the exact same for RB. Imola would have had quite a different outcome as well by those lines.
I just don't really buy the 'gifting the WDC' part; that is just sentiment (fully understandable though, but it is).

Masi could have followed 48.12 to the letter, let the lapped cars pass and then finish behind the SC. While I am sure Horner and Max would be livid with such an outcome there would be no way they could point to Masi and say he did anything improper. At worst they could say he did not act fast enough but with images of Stroll going past marshals and a crane on the track after pitting and catching the tail of the pack up it is really hard to say that anything could have moved faster and in fact it should have been done more slowly to ensure the safety of drivers and marshals.

I agree, I think it’s also more egregious that he went against his own mantra from last year it shows he knew the correct way to do it…but at least he got his box office finish.