2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

[Tom145145]

No, what would be unfair is to revert one decision that was unfair to Lewis while neglecting other decisions throughout the season that were unfair to Max (or others), and then calling it fair . Again, the championship is the sum of the season, not the result of a single race. Singling out one decision and forgetting the rest does not lead to fairness.

i would genuinely want to know what decision was unfair to Max throughout the course of the season

Wait for it…….Silverstone

It really doesn’t matter either, it will not be worked out on a balance of fairness. It will be assessed on whether the rules were abided by.
I understand how the decisions in this season bring strong emotions, but the time for these to be adjudicated passed. Because the outcome of the process has the implications it does, doesn’t stop that being a possibility. It will be looked at on its own merits if it get that far.
I am hoping for a deal, because this could be catastrophic for F1. I said I thought mutually assured destruction would dampen this down, but atm it seems like they are happy to mutually destruct.

[Jambier]

How do you think this Mercedes-gate will affect their presence in F1 ?

- No communication
- Refuses to send world title wining F1 and FE to the FIA pictures of winner of the year
- Hunting down and put some threat on people that share Toto video having fun

They are acting totally crazy and killing their image in my opinion. I've never seen that before... maybe in any sport

[PlatinumZealot]

Short version: Masi should've let the lapped cars unlap in lap 56.
Long version: 164 pages and counting.

Nah he would broken the rules too! The track wasn't clear. Marshalls would be the firing line of speeding lapped cars.

[Tom145145]

How do you think this Mercedes-gate will affect their presence in F1 ?

- No communication
- Refuses to send world title wining F1 and FE to the FIA pictures of winner of the year
- Hunting down and put some threat on people that share Toto video having fun

They are acting totally crazy and killing their image in my opinion. I've never seen that before... maybe in any sport

I think Masigate is more suitable but that’s by the by.

It is strange behaviour but it strikes me as a team on a war footing, the FIA gala is the equivalent of withdrawing diplomats before declaring war.
It has been said before that Daimler may be backing away from F1 with the reduced share in Mercedes and that they might become Team Ineos. This seemed unlikely but now who knows.

[kenshi_blind]

No, what would be unfair is to revert one decision that was unfair to Lewis while neglecting other decisions throughout the season that were unfair to Max (or others), and then calling it fair . Again, the championship is the sum of the season, not the result of a single race. Singling out one decision and forgetting the rest does not lead to fairness.

i would genuinely want to know what decision was unfair to Max throughout the course of the season

I have literally mentioned that a few posts back. In Bahrain Lewis was allowed to gain a persistent advantage of 3s by ignoring track limits, something that Masi himself afterwards said was illegal, but did not penalize. Without this advantage, MV might have well won the race, and those points were essential to the championship if the last race was decided in Lewis' favor.
Other than that changes in the regulations regarding wings and pitstops have negatively affected RB, although that is much harder to quantify. Still, mid-season rule changes in general are problematic because they potentially affect some teams more than others, and introduce new requirements that could not be anticipated when designing the cars/setting team procedures for the season.
No, not Silverstone. That decision was fair. I am not happy with the result as such, but that was not a fault of the race director or a regulation change.

no offense but you're just making things up and moving the goalpost to fit your narrative
. In Bahrain, Hamilton didn't ignore track limit, there was no track limit before the race director issued a new ruling so no He did not ignore track limit . please do not rewrite history
. As far as the wings regulations is concerned , it was obvious to anyone that Redbull wings was not compliant with the spirit of the regulations , it passed the test but it was not compliant with the spirit of the regulations hence why they were given ample time to sort it out
. As for the pit stops , i fail to see the relevance as it affected all the teams.

[Starkblood80]

No, what would be unfair is to revert one decision that was unfair to Lewis while neglecting other decisions throughout the season that were unfair to Max (or others), and then calling it fair . Again, the championship is the sum of the season, not the result of a single race. Singling out one decision and forgetting the rest does not lead to fairness.

i would genuinely want to know what decision was unfair to Max throughout the course of the season

I have literally mentioned that a few posts back. In Bahrain Lewis was allowed to gain a persistent advantage of 3s by ignoring track limits, something that Masi himself afterwards said was illegal, but did not penalize. Without this advantage, MV might have well won the race, and those points were essential to the championship if the last race was decided in Lewis' favor.
Other than that changes in the regulations regarding wings and pitstops have negatively affected RB, although that is much harder to quantify. Still, mid-season rule changes in general are problematic because they potentially affect some teams more than others, and introduce new requirements that could not be anticipated when designing the cars/setting team procedures for the season.
No, not Silverstone. That decision was fair. I am not happy with the result as such, but that was not a fault of the race director or a regulation change.

Just out of curiosity who calculated that Hamilton gained a 3 second advantage in Bahrain? With regards to Redbulls wing and pitstops you must lay at least a percentage of the blame on them for overstepping the rules.
I adon’t think any of those examples are directly comparable with what happened on Sunday either.
Lastly you cannot deny that some decisions by masi/stewards have benefited Redbull or Max either.

[Jambier]

How do you think this Mercedes-gate will affect their presence in F1 ?

- No communication
- Refuses to send world title wining F1 and FE to the FIA pictures of winner of the year
- Hunting down and put some threat on people that share Toto video having fun

They are acting totally crazy and killing their image in my opinion. I've never seen that before... maybe in any sport

I think Masigate is more suitable but that’s by the by.

It is strange behaviour but it strikes me as a team on a war footing, the FIA gala is the equivalent of withdrawing diplomats before declaring war.
It has been said before that Daimler may be backing away from F1 with the reduced share in Mercedes and that they might become Team Ineos. This seemed unlikely but now who knows.

All they are doing is really hurting their public image... it is now a Mercedes vs FIA fight, it make no sense.

I don't know maybe FIA could also disqualify them for this season if they continue like that. This will not end good

[PlatinumZealot]

[
As far as Lewis, he seems to be more gracious and cordial than Max, but I still think he'd feel better if it were annulled than for Max to have 'beat' him. Think about it - if you and your coworker were competing for a promotion, and you both really wanted to get it, would you feel better if HE got it, or would you feel better if neither got it? If you're competitive, it'd be the latter 100%.

Anyway, I'd argue the annulment would be better for the show anyway. If you're a "real" fan, then you can never be satisfied with this result. It's not the Max barely won, or Lewis almost did (remember 1994, 1997, 2007, 2008, 2012?) but it's that the winner was all but decided by.... the race director. That's what makes this WDC sour and invalid IMO. If Masi said, "Max is DQ'd because passed Lewis before the SC restart" would everyone be saying "well, Lewis deserved to win the WDC because he was equal on points and worked hard anyway"...?

That knowledge is more important than the silverware once the adrenaline of the event has gone.

With respect, that is extremely naive to assume such a thing about any race driver or professional sportsman in general.

In some respects, as a Lewis fan, I would imagine that this title - his 8th - was the most important and meaningful of all. To surpass what was already unachievable, unbelievable. To have his name written as the greatest - objectively at that! I really doubt Lewis is thinking "oh well, I know I beat him, so who cares." Make no mistake, Lewis showed a truckload of class and dignity after the race. But don't confuse that with have no ego or not caring about how the world sees him, or remembers him. He WANTS that 8th title just like we all want him to get it.

Anyway, that's really besides the point. I see it this way, and this is my opinion. Best outcomes to worst in this order:

1. Court (or whomever) overturns the race result; race officially ended 1 lap early. Lewis is champion.
2. Court decides that in the best interest of everyone, Lewis and Max are co-champions (lol)
3. No champion this year.
4. Max stays WDC with a huge asterisk next to it.

I like that. It does happen in some sports like track and field. Two gold medals awarded. But There is little precedent to share it with Max though. He finished behind in the legal portion of the race. When the race was ran illegally on the last lap you could argue that competition was not fair to the field of cars. Some were on old tyres, some were stuck between lapped cars, while others had road paved with gold. If you were Lance on fresh softs you had no chance to attack for points, because 11th and 10th were already half way around the circuit!

[ringo]

The mercedes vs fia thing must happen.
F1 will lose all credibility if it doesnt and its worst because it is not a spec series. Other manufacturers will be afraid go invest in uncertainty and volatility.
I see no "sore loser" perception here. Merc are more like victims than sore losers.
They will win in court. Sorry for Max but Horner and Masi is to blame if he does lose the title.
Even sharing it makes no sense. As again, under legal circumstances he would be placed second to Lewis. We need to look beyond the emotional side of things and see things as they are.
In track and field, if you touch the inside line of your lane in a 200m race you are disqualified. You gained an advantage. You may well come across the line first and celebrate to the crowd and go back to your locker room. Once that review is done and you were deemed to be ovet the line, you lose your win. It's simple.
Now it should even be more clear cut if the stewards let you run 180 metres when the other guy has to run 200 metres. You simply should not be the winner if your racing under random and twisted regulations.

[pantherxxx]

How do you think this Mercedes-gate will affect their presence in F1 ?

- No communication
- Refuses to send world title wining F1 and FE to the FIA pictures of winner of the year
- Hunting down and put some threat on people that share Toto video having fun

They are acting totally crazy and killing their image in my opinion. I've never seen that before... maybe in any sport

They're sore losers. They just want to ruin Verstappen's celebration of his first DWC, but they cannot.

[Phil]

No, what would be unfair is to revert one decision that was unfair to Lewis while neglecting other decisions throughout the season that were unfair to Max (or others), and then calling it fair .

Hum no. There's a process for such things. It's called protesting a result and taking the appropriate steps. Every competitor has that right, including RedBull. If they do so or not half way through the season, is really up to them.

What Mercedes does now in light of the last race is within regulations. Again, every competitor has that right.

You might call it fair or not, but that's how it is. If RedBull or Max feel unfairly cheated out for things that happened throughout the season, maybe they should have protested them. The irony is; if the roles had been reversed, you can bet that RedBull would be doing exactly the same thing. The problem isn't Mercedes or RedBull - the problem is with the poor stewarding and race-director that went against procedures. It's that simple.

[PlatinumZealot]

I’m starting to think they should annull the whole 2021 WDC. No way you can adjust the result of this race and award the championship to either driver. If you don’t count this race results Max would win on the count back rule. Not fair on Lewis as he would have won this race if Masi hadn’t made the rules up as he went. If you give Lewis the win Max loses out for no fault of his own. Annull the championship and no one loses to their competitor.


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Max doesnt lose anything if Lewis gets the win.
It was not Max's to win in the first place.

People are talking as if Redbull were anywhere near challenging for that race win before and during the legal safety car.
The last 1 lap should be invalid. F-1 has counted race classifications on less than race distance. We saw that at spa.
If they want to award half points for AbuDhabi they can do that as well. And Lewis would still be Champion. Max and redbull dont deserve anything they didnt earn on the track. They already got a gift from Spa.

I really don't want to call out any individuals for their contributions, but this is really going too far. MV-fans are often accused of ruining the atmosphere on the forum (and as I have said before, in some cases I agree - for example, accusations of illegality without backing are out of line), but there is a group of LH fans that behaves just as vile.

Both drivers are well deserving of the championship this year. In my view, regarding all events this year (instead of just focusing on the 2 decisions that fell into MVs favor), Max deserved it more. But hey, perhaps that's bias, I'm not judging. But to say Max did not deserve it and does not lose anything... come on man.

DC, I always see you typing Max deserves it more. Do you mean you felt that he should be ahead of Lewis on points going into the last race? As much as 8 points then? I would love a thread so that objective posters can analyse this.

[nimoraca]

If one ever comes into possession of stolen goods, event though he didn't do anything illegal, the goods might still get taken away. Even if one worked really hard for it, doesn't matter.
Having said that, I do not think that a title should be taken away from Max, but I do think that Mercedes should appeal and take this to court as FIA should not be let of the hook so easily for choosing to break its onw regulations and on top of it all, choosing to try to cover it up with a clear misinterpretation of a statement from the same sporting code.

[KeiKo403]

Couple of arguments I’m seeing here is Max has been declared the winner of the race and championship so it’s unfair to strip him of the race win and WDC crown.

However if the argument of fairness is anything to go by then it was unfair to say the least how that race ended.

The argument of Max has 10 wins to Lewis’ 8 is also undone by this too as if fairness is taken into account then Max didn’t win AD and Lewis did, ergo 9 wins each.

Masi has also insinuated that fairness doesn’t come into it with his “this is a motor race”

The thing I think I most dislike is Max saying that it’s ok for him to be champion because Lewis already had 7 titles and so as bad as it is for Lewis to feel how he does it would’ve been worse for Max to not win the Championship because he didn’t win a race he wasn’t on to win for 57/58 laps anyway.

No, what would be unfair is to revert one decision that was unfair to Lewis while neglecting other decisions throughout the season that were unfair to Max (or others), and then calling it fair . Again, the championship is the sum of the season, not the result of a single race. Singling out one decision and forgetting the rest does not lead to fairness.

My argument is that if someone declares you can't take the championship away from Max because that isn't fair, it implies that you take fairness into consideration. With that in mind you also need to apply the fairness unilaterally and say, on fairness he didn't deserve that race win in Abu Dhabi. Without the weird (and tbc, against the rules/sprit of racing) safety car procedures Lewis raced for it and deserved it fair and square. If that win gives the points required to take the Championship then so be it.

I'm in the Abu Dhabi thread. If you want to bring up:
Bahrain (which btw Red Bull didn't complain about until it was mentioned on the Sky commentary IIRC, maybe a coincidence?) go to that thread.
Silverstone, again there's a thread for that too.
Hungry, you guessed it...

All of those though are at best poor/inconsistent stewarding which RedBull either have or could/should/but didn't protest about.

The issue here is a Race Director conflating his job with that of a Netflix Director.

In all other FIA backroom deals there's surely been some compromise the FIA can offer. This time though I don't see what the FIA can offer Mercedes to make this 'go away' whilst still leaving the results as they stand.

[Tom145145]

How do you think this Mercedes-gate will affect their presence in F1 ?

- No communication
- Refuses to send world title wining F1 and FE to the FIA pictures of winner of the year
- Hunting down and put some threat on people that share Toto video having fun

They are acting totally crazy and killing their image in my opinion. I've never seen that before... maybe in any sport

I think Masigate is more suitable but that’s by the by.

It is strange behaviour but it strikes me as a team on a war footing, the FIA gala is the equivalent of withdrawing diplomats before declaring war.
It has been said before that Daimler may be backing away from F1 with the reduced share in Mercedes and that they might become Team Ineos. This seemed unlikely but now who knows.

All they are doing is really hurting their public image... it is now a Mercedes vs FIA fight, it make no sense.

I don't know maybe FIA could also disqualify them for this season if they continue like that. This will not end good

I think in the current climate the public image is a odd thing to judge, the world in general is so polarised. I doubt it will prompt anyone to trade in their Merc for a Honda anytime soon either.