2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

[kenshi_blind]

Again you're making things up .
.whatever Masi or the Fia said afterwards to save their asses is irrelevant , we all heard what the race direction said during the race and what the driver said post race conference .

And again, I completely disagree. For track limits, the rule is simple. "Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not leave the track without a justifiable reason. Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and, for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not."

There is nothing about "this rule will only be enforced in selected corners", and a statement that the stewards will explicitly monitor selected corners by no means implies that the track limits do not apply to the others. The only ambiguity comes from the stewards not enforcing swiftly and consistently. I am not going to change my mind on this, nor am I going to argue it any further here. There's another thread for that.

. as for the wings , as i said you can keep on moving the goalpost . we all know wings cannot be all rigid and we've seen wings ( front and back bending) , what Redbull did was not compliant and they have a long history of bending wings (again they were given more than enough time to fix that and they have benefited from it but that's fair game).

And so under what regulation was RB not compliant, as wings cannot be rigid, and they did meet the quantitative regulations that were in place? By every measurable rule (rules should be SMART, and M stands for Measurable) they were compliant. How could they have enough time to change, if they were not told what rules to adhere to when changing? Did they need to telepathically connect to the rulewriters mind to get that information? That's not moving any goalposts. It's just an analysis of the situation. And as for the partymodes, I agree, that should not have been changed midseason. But anyway, there is another topic for this discussion too.

My point stands, disputable decisions were made throughout and have affected both teams. Not just last race.

"And again, I completely disagree. For track limits, the rule is simple. "Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not leave the track without a justifiable reason. Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and, for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not."
lol you cannot be serious, we both know that has never been the case in modern F1 , that's the not rule as you try to make it up again .ideally yes it should be but it is not.
i was hoping you'd give me genuine and irrefutable proof that Max was treated unfairly throughout the season but alas
let just leave it at that

[DChemTech]

"And again, I completely disagree. For track limits, the rule is simple. "Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not leave the track without a justifiable reason. Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and, for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not."
lol you cannot be serious, we both know that has never been the case in modern F1 , that's the not rule as you try to make it up again .ideally yes it should be but it is not.
i was hoping you'd give me genuine and irrefutable proof that Max was treated unfairly throughout the season but alas
let just leave it at that

This line literally comes from the sporting regulations. If the regulations mean nothing anyway, then what's the problem last weekend?

[Starkblood80]

"And again, I completely disagree. For track limits, the rule is simple. "Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not leave the track without a justifiable reason. Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and, for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not."
lol you cannot be serious, we both know that has never been the case in modern F1 , that's the not rule as you try to make it up again .ideally yes it should be but it is not.
i was hoping you'd give me genuine and irrefutable proof that Max was treated unfairly throughout the season but alas
let just leave it at that

This line literally comes from the sporting regulations. If the regulations mean nothing anyway, then what's the problem last weekend?

Lets for arguments sake agree that Max was hard done by in Bahrain and Hamilton got the run of the green. Can we also agree that max not being punished in Brazil for running Hamilton off the track was a decision that went in his favour?

[Roo]

Yup! Sounds good to me.

- Public apology
- Compensation for any financial or commercial loss
- Masi fired
- Changes to ensure no one else ever falls victim to this

While i'd love the title be removed from RB and Max, it would be more powerful to have it on record that the FIA gave MV the title. That is a line in history worth giving up the title for.

[dans79]

"And again, I completely disagree. For track limits, the rule is simple. "Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not leave the track without a justifiable reason. Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and, for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not."
lol you cannot be serious, we both know that has never been the case in modern F1 , that's the not rule as you try to make it up again .ideally yes it should be but it is not.
i was hoping you'd give me genuine and irrefutable proof that Max was treated unfairly throughout the season but alas
let just leave it at that

This line literally comes from the sporting regulations. If the regulations mean nothing anyway, then what's the problem last weekend?

Imo, their is a significant difference between a competitor violating the rules and the governing body doing it. A competitor can be punished for it at any time should the governing body decide to actually enforce the rules.Competitors can basically do nothing about it (short of legal action), when the governing body violates the rules.

in regard the the fairness debate, I personally believe Max benefited massively twice this year. In Abu Dhabi of course, but also in Spa when he was gifted a race win, even though an actual race never took place! Both instances are examples of the governing body heavily manipulating or breaking the rules depending on how you look at it!

[DChemTech]

"And again, I completely disagree. For track limits, the rule is simple. "Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not leave the track without a justifiable reason. Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and, for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not."
lol you cannot be serious, we both know that has never been the case in modern F1 , that's the not rule as you try to make it up again .ideally yes it should be but it is not.
i was hoping you'd give me genuine and irrefutable proof that Max was treated unfairly throughout the season but alas
let just leave it at that

This line literally comes from the sporting regulations. If the regulations mean nothing anyway, then what's the problem last weekend?

Lets for arguments sake agree that Max was hard done by in Bahrain and Hamilton got the run of the green. Can we also agree that max not being punished in Brazil for running Hamilton off the track was a decision that went in his favour?

I will need to review the particular incident, but generally speaking, yes, there were probably several incidents throughout the season where warnings or penalties were in order but not given, some of which (potentially) altered a race outcome and others not. If a 'fair' outcome which was not 'handed' in one way or the other by the stewards, all should be reviewed.

[DChemTech]

"And again, I completely disagree. For track limits, the rule is simple. "Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not leave the track without a justifiable reason. Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and, for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not."
lol you cannot be serious, we both know that has never been the case in modern F1 , that's the not rule as you try to make it up again .ideally yes it should be but it is not.
i was hoping you'd give me genuine and irrefutable proof that Max was treated unfairly throughout the season but alas
let just leave it at that

This line literally comes from the sporting regulations. If the regulations mean nothing anyway, then what's the problem last weekend?

Imo, their is a significant difference between a competitor violating the rules and the governing body doing it. A competitor can be punished for it at any time should the governing body decide to actually enforce the rules.Competitors can basically do nothing about it (short of legal action), when the governing body violates the rules.

in regard the the fairness debate, I personally believe Max benefited massively twice this year. In Abu Dhabi of course, but also in Spa when he was gifted a race win, even though an actual race never took place! Both instances are examples of the governing body heavily manipulating or breaking the rules depending on how you look at it!

My argument was that in Bahrain the governing body violated their own rules by not acting at first, then changing their mind halfway the race. I don't blame LH for 'abusing' track limits as long as he was given a free pass to do so.

[kenshi_blind]

"And again, I completely disagree. For track limits, the rule is simple. "Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not leave the track without a justifiable reason. Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and, for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not."
lol you cannot be serious, we both know that has never been the case in modern F1 , that's the not rule as you try to make it up again .ideally yes it should be but it is not.
i was hoping you'd give me genuine and irrefutable proof that Max was treated unfairly throughout the season but alas
let just leave it at that

This line literally comes from the sporting regulations. If the regulations mean nothing anyway, then what's the problem last weekend?

I see you're arguing in bad faith . i know it comes from the regulations but track limits has never been regulated for ages now as it should have , that's why i say you keep moving the goalpost to fit your narrative. The fact that you want to compare Bahrain to what happened last Sunday says it all.

My argument was that in Bahrain the governing body violated their own rules by not acting at first, then changing their mind halfway the race. I don't blame LH for 'abusing' track limits as long as he was given a free pass to do so.

They did not , that 's not how it happened . drivers were not told that, that particular corner or part of the track was monitored for track limits then at a certain point when Max caught up with Lewis , he voiced that issue on the radio and Redbull asked if it was allowed then Masi said not it wasn't. You can be sure that if it was monitored like they tried to say afterward, Lewis would have gotten black/white flags and whatnot.

Edit : i recall the sky pundits being caught off guard when Masi/race control said it wasn't allowed so yeah it did not happen the way you're saying it did . It's a bit like what happened in the drivers meeting post Brazil, Masi came up and said everybody knew the rules and were happy only for all the drivers except Max to refute that and then later on , we came to know that he said to the drivers that if what happened in brazil , happens again, the outcome would/might be different .
So no it wasn't as clear cut as you're trying to paint it

[101FlyingDutchman]

This line literally comes from the sporting regulations. If the regulations mean nothing anyway, then what's the problem last weekend?

Lets for arguments sake agree that Max was hard done by in Bahrain and Hamilton got the run of the green. Can we also agree that max not being punished in Brazil for running Hamilton off the track was a decision that went in his favour?

I will need to review the particular incident, but generally speaking, yes, there were probably several incidents throughout the season where warnings or penalties were in order but not given, some of which (potentially) altered a race outcome and others not. If a 'fair' outcome which was not 'handed' in one way or the other by the stewards, all should be reviewed.

Your patience and ability to express what you want to say with clarity are fantastic skills. Couldn’t agree more with how you view the current situation.

[DChemTech]

"And again, I completely disagree. For track limits, the rule is simple. "Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not leave the track without a justifiable reason. Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and, for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not."
lol you cannot be serious, we both know that has never been the case in modern F1 , that's the not rule as you try to make it up again .ideally yes it should be but it is not.
i was hoping you'd give me genuine and irrefutable proof that Max was treated unfairly throughout the season but alas
let just leave it at that

This line literally comes from the sporting regulations. If the regulations mean nothing anyway, then what's the problem last weekend?

I see you're arguing in bad faith . i know it comes from the regulations but track limits has never been regulated for ages now as it should have , that's why i say you keep moving the goalpost to fit your narrative. The fact that you want to compare Bahrain to what happened last Sunday says it all.

What is bad faith about referring to an incident where the race director broke the sporting regulations, if the major argument this weekend has revolved around the racing director breaking the sporting regulations?

It seems quite outrageous to me to essentially say "well, that particular point is consistently broken anyway, so that regulation doesn't matter, the RD can do as they please. But the others are holy and may never be violated". Perhaps the problem with the track limit regulation being broken consistently is, well, that it is being broken consistently which should not happen in the first place.

[Tom145145]

This line literally comes from the sporting regulations. If the regulations mean nothing anyway, then what's the problem last weekend?

I see you're arguing in bad faith . i know it comes from the regulations but track limits has never been regulated for ages now as it should have , that's why i say you keep moving the goalpost to fit your narrative. The fact that you want to compare Bahrain to what happened last Sunday says it all.

What is bad faith about referring to an incident where the race director broke the sporting regulations, if the major argument this weekend has revolved around the racing director breaking the sporting regulations?

It seems quite outrageous to me to essentially say "well, that particular point is consistently broken anyway, so that regulation doesn't matter, the RD can do as they please. But the others are holy and may never be violated". Perhaps the problem with the track limit regulation being broken consistently is, well, that it is being broken consistently which should not happen in the first place.

I see your point and if there is a full review of the rules out of this situation then I wholeheartedly agree that this subject will need to be addressed.
I think where others are disagreeing is that it doesn’t relate to the AD breaking of the rules, for my part I don’t see how it could be brought into the court. The FIA won’t use it as it harms them and Redbull won’t be present in a capacity that would allow them to bring it up.
If (and it’s a massive If) Mercedes won, it wouldn’t be the appeals court’s job to reassess the season, just the last race.

[Wouter]

Is it possible that FIA makes decision to exclude this race from official results if Mercedes wins at court?

Yes. They will do that for sure. That is their only option.

[kenshi_blind]

This line literally comes from the sporting regulations. If the regulations mean nothing anyway, then what's the problem last weekend?

I see you're arguing in bad faith . i know it comes from the regulations but track limits has never been regulated for ages now as it should have , that's why i say you keep moving the goalpost to fit your narrative. The fact that you want to compare Bahrain to what happened last Sunday says it all.

What is bad faith about referring to an incident where the race director broke the sporting regulations, if the major argument this weekend has revolved around the racing director breaking the sporting regulations?

It seems quite outrageous to me to essentially say "well, that particular point is consistently broken anyway, so that regulation doesn't matter, the RD can do as they please. But the others are holy and may never be violated". Perhaps the problem with the track limit regulation being broken consistently is, well, that it is being broken consistently which should not happen in the first place.

Track limits during the Bahrain GP was never what you're trying to say it was . that is a bad faith argument and a load of whataboutism

[Big Tea]

Is it possible that FIA makes decision to exclude this race from official results if Mercedes wins at court?

Yes. They will do that for sure. That is their only option.

I doubt they could. The organisers competitors viewers TV companies sponsors etc have contracts to run/cover/watch etc a world championship round, and if this is no longer a round of the championship they will not be happy

[DChemTech]

I see you're arguing in bad faith . i know it comes from the regulations but track limits has never been regulated for ages now as it should have , that's why i say you keep moving the goalpost to fit your narrative. The fact that you want to compare Bahrain to what happened last Sunday says it all.

What is bad faith about referring to an incident where the race director broke the sporting regulations, if the major argument this weekend has revolved around the racing director breaking the sporting regulations?

It seems quite outrageous to me to essentially say "well, that particular point is consistently broken anyway, so that regulation doesn't matter, the RD can do as they please. But the others are holy and may never be violated". Perhaps the problem with the track limit regulation being broken consistently is, well, that it is being broken consistently which should not happen in the first place.

Track limits during the Bahrain GP was never what you're trying to say it was . that is a bad faith argument and a load of whataboutism

It was, it is in the rules. That the RD didn't apply their own rules consistently is a problem, and it is exactly the problem the Abu Dhabi discussion centers around. It does not matter if the RD consistently misinterprets their own rules, it doesn't change what's in the book.