2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

[Spoutnik]

Do you know what what was time lost in pit under sc? How close was Lewis to free pitstop?

Apparently it was 13-15sec, the gap to Verstappen was 11.5 sec when the incident occured.

On the full radio transcription Hamilton is asking Bono "why we're not pitting", his answer is "we'll lose track position" and later "it may not restart".

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Thank you for your effort!

Wow it was so close. Stu is rig. So many things came together for Verstappen to win, including Mercedes reacting to Max pitting.
But also VSC without which Max would probably drop off, and Perez doing incredible job holding up Lewis.

Your welcome !
I think traffic played a big part here too. Verstappen was closing down on the group of four cars battling (Alpine + Ricciardo and someone else iirc) while Hamilton already passed them losing time behind the Alpine.
Verstappen started to lose time as he was in the middle of this midfield battle and gap to Lewis was opening a bit from 11 sec to almost 12 sec before SC. One lap later maybe Hamilton would've been able to pit... we'll never know.

EDIT : Bottas could have played a key role here if he was in Verstappen's safety car window.

[Spoutnik]

You seem to misunderstand the rules. Race director has overriding decision. The wording says that once the last lapped car passes the safety car that it is to come in the next lap. Well, not all lapped cars actually passed the safety car so the safety car technically can come in at the end of that lap. The point of the safety car period is for the safety of the crew cleaning up the wreck, which was completed. It isn't to ensure that the race leader wins with the race under yellow. It was green flag conditions and race control called in the safety car and green flagged the race because there was no longer a hazard on the track but not enough space for the entire field to unlap themselves. The issue you have is that the cars between Ham and Max were let through and Max was on better tyres. It was the right decision to let them race. Ham could have told his team to pit him for fresh tires, but his team insisted on track position. You are the one deflecting this key decision.

The safety car came in the same lap, not the next lap.

Exactly. The same lap, not the following lap. It was basically “let a few cars unlap themselves OK 1-2-3 go!” It was farcical.

Even if you isolate the question of the car unlapping themselves, the SC ending was stated at the beggining of the slow section (middle of S3 so !), this must be the latest safety car ending I ever saw in 20 years of F1 honestly.

[Tvetovnato]

I am accusing the FIA for cheating, which they did. Mercedes had no way of pitting, since they would have to give up track position, which you don’t do in that situation. But discussing strategy in this race is quite meaningless and only deflecting, since the tyre offset in the end should not even had made a difference had the rules been applied properly. They weren’t, since the FIA wanted a show rather than a sport.

You seem to misunderstand the rules. Race director has overriding decision. The wording says that once the last lapped car passes the safety car that it is to come in the next lap. Well, not all lapped cars actually passed the safety car so the safety car technically can come in at the end of that lap. The point of the safety car period is for the safety of the crew cleaning up the wreck, which was completed. It isn't to ensure that the race leader wins with the race under yellow. It was green flag conditions and race control called in the safety car and green flagged the race because there was no longer a hazard on the track but not enough space for the entire field to unlap themselves. The issue you have is that the cars between Ham and Max were let through and Max was on better tyres. It was the right decision to let them race. Ham could have told his team to pit him for fresh tires, but his team insisted on track position. You are the one deflecting this key decision.

No the issue I have is that the rules were altered to create a fake show. The rule says that any cars that have been lapped should overtake the SC before green. Any means all here, as confirmed by Masi himself last year at the Eifel GP. Somehow it was convienient to alter that rule for this very situation. The result is that Max was almost the only one who had a chance to gain any position, since you still had lapped cars between other cars who raced for position. It’s nothing else than a disgrace, and has already tainted an otherwise great championship in a serious way.

[_cerber1]

You seem to misunderstand the rules. Race director has overriding decision. The wording says that once the last lapped car passes the safety car that it is to come in the next lap. Well, not all lapped cars actually passed the safety car so the safety car technically can come in at the end of that lap. The point of the safety car period is for the safety of the crew cleaning up the wreck, which was completed. It isn't to ensure that the race leader wins with the race under yellow. It was green flag conditions and race control called in the safety car and green flagged the race because there was no longer a hazard on the track but not enough space for the entire field to unlap themselves. The issue you have is that the cars between Ham and Max were let through and Max was on better tyres. It was the right decision to let them race. Ham could have told his team to pit him for fresh tires, but his team insisted on track position. You are the one deflecting this key decision.

The location of cars on the track at the beginning of lap 58:
- it is not safe, because Vettel has just finished the first sector;
- it is not sports, because everyone who was allowed to go ahead was actually deprived of the opportunity to fight;
- this is generally contrary to paragraph 48.12

[Spoutnik]

You seem to misunderstand the rules. Race director has overriding decision. The wording says that once the last lapped car passes the safety car that it is to come in the next lap. Well, not all lapped cars actually passed the safety car so the safety car technically can come in at the end of that lap. The point of the safety car period is for the safety of the crew cleaning up the wreck, which was completed. It isn't to ensure that the race leader wins with the race under yellow. It was green flag conditions and race control called in the safety car and green flagged the race because there was no longer a hazard on the track but not enough space for the entire field to unlap themselves. The issue you have is that the cars between Ham and Max were let through and Max was on better tyres. It was the right decision to let them race. Ham could have told his team to pit him for fresh tires, but his team insisted on track position. You are the one deflecting this key decision.

https://ibb.co/V25fySV

The location of cars on the track at the beginning of lap 58:
- it is not safe, because Vettel has just finished the first sector;
- it is not sports, because everyone who was allowed to go ahead was actually deprived of the opportunity to fight;
- this is generally contrary to paragraph 48.12

Thank you for this map I was searching one of them.
It's utterly ridiculous, more thqn what I expect, and on a shorter track (Monaco ? Austria) it could've been dangerous.

[Alakshendra]

Maldonado has nothing to do with this, yes it was a gamble, and who are you accusing of cheating? It was tough luck, but just not for Max. It's not Max's fault Hamilton was on old hards, that's his team's decision! There was an element of risk vs reward and Mercedes quite honestly chickened out. If they had fitted softs for Hamilton his superior pace surely would have seen him win. Sometimes it isn't the fastest car that wins and we've seen that all season. For Mercedes it was disaster-class!

We’ve been over this, if merc pitted Red Bull would’ve stayed out, then it would of finished under a sc and looked like fools for giving up track position

Perfect. If Mercedes pitted, RB stayed out... the race will finish under safety care. Then the RB will say all the rules are followed.

I bet the incident caused by Williams, may be pre planned.

Any way RB and MAX will get the WDC whatever out come of the race. It is "Match Fixed" well in advance.

Why will Williams do that? Williams is a customer of Mercedes, Toto got stake in the team, they got Russel there. I don't think it was pre planned and make such allegations is wrong to be honest on a team which has such a rich history in formula 1.

[TimW]

they were always going to restart the race. All year they have done everything to create more spectacle. Baku: red flag and standing restart for 2 laps. Hungary: wet conditions. start crash, still a standing instead of a rolling one. Jeddah: crash at first restart, red flag and again a standin restart. Mercedes should have known the FIA would do anything to have a final fight when the opportunity presented itself.

If the positions were reversed in AD they would have done the same. I fully agree they bent the rules, but I do not believe there was a bias towards Verstappen. If so, they would have handled differently on lap 1. The bias is only perceived by biased fans.

[Tom145145]

they were always going to restart the race. All year they have done everything to create more spectacle. Baku: red flag and standing restart for 2 laps. Hungary: wet conditions. start crash, still a standing instead of a rolling one. Jeddah: crash at first restart, red flag and again a standin restart. Mercedes should have known the FIA would do anything to have a final fight when the opportunity presented itself.

If the positions were reversed in AD they would have done the same. I fully agree they bent the rules, but I do not believe there was a bias towards Verstappen. If so, they would have handled differently on lap 1. The bias is only perceived by biased fans.

There was a uneven playing field in the last lap, put in place by the RD contrary to the rules. Even if one thinks Carlos wasn’t in a place to attack it doesn’t matter. He was treated (as were other drivers) differently, ie the situation was biased in favour of Max.

[sosic2121]

Apparently it was 13-15sec, the gap to Verstappen was 11.5 sec when the incident occured.

On the full radio transcription Hamilton is asking Bono "why we're not pitting", his answer is "we'll lose track position" and later "it may not restart".

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Thank you for your effort!

Wow it was so close. Stu is rig. So many things came together for Verstappen to win, including Mercedes reacting to Max pitting.
But also VSC without which Max would probably drop off, and Perez doing incredible job holding up Lewis.

So is the VSC also part of the conspiracy? I understand how RedBull got Latifi to crash for them, but where is the connection to the Alfas who tried twice to get a VSC?

Nooo
I'm just appreciating the race.
Mercedes was much faster than RB in race(as it's been for much of the season) and super fast on straights(unlike in quali where RB was faster )
So I'm just remembering what had to happen for max to be only 11s behind Lewis at the end of the race so he could take advantage of SC.

[nimoraca]

I am accusing the FIA for cheating, which they did. Mercedes had no way of pitting, since they would have to give up track position, which you don’t do in that situation. But discussing strategy in this race is quite meaningless and only deflecting, since the tyre offset in the end should not even had made a difference had the rules been applied properly. They weren’t, since the FIA wanted a show rather than a sport.

You seem to misunderstand the rules. Race director has overriding decision. The wording says that once the last lapped car passes the safety car that it is to come in the next lap. Well, not all lapped cars actually passed the safety car so the safety car technically can come in at the end of that lap. The point of the safety car period is for the safety of the crew cleaning up the wreck, which was completed. It isn't to ensure that the race leader wins with the race under yellow. It was green flag conditions and race control called in the safety car and green flagged the race because there was no longer a hazard on the track but not enough space for the entire field to unlap themselves. The issue you have is that the cars between Ham and Max were let through and Max was on better tyres. It was the right decision to let them race. Ham could have told his team to pit him for fresh tires, but his team insisted on track position. You are the one deflecting this key decision.

In the the sporting code, the decision when to use the safety car is defined:
The safety car may be brought into operation to neutralise a sprint qualifying session or a race
upon the order of the clerk of the course.
The clerk of the course shall work in permanent consultation with the Race Director. The Race
Director shall have overriding authority in the following matters: the use of the safety car.

This, obviously, means that race director can override the clerk on when to deploy the safety car, not the actual safety car procedure. Otherwise why event define the safety car procedure in the rules when the race director can decide on the fly what the procedure is. He can even decide to reverse the order of cars or any other madness.

Is is quite clear that that was not intention of the rules and exactly the reason why Mercedes has a case (if they decide to appeal). Unfortunately, event though the International Court of Appeal declares itself as being independent of the FIA, its judges are elected by the FIA General Assembly, so when it comes to arbitrating in an appeal against the FIA itself, I wouldn't expect it to be impartial.

[TimW]

they were always going to restart the race. All year they have done everything to create more spectacle. Baku: red flag and standing restart for 2 laps. Hungary: wet conditions. start crash, still a standing instead of a rolling one. Jeddah: crash at first restart, red flag and again a standin restart. Mercedes should have known the FIA would do anything to have a final fight when the opportunity presented itself.

If the positions were reversed in AD they would have done the same. I fully agree they bent the rules, but I do not believe there was a bias towards Verstappen. If so, they would have handled differently on lap 1. The bias is only perceived by biased fans.

There was a uneven playing field in the last lap, put in place by the RD contrary to the rules. Even if one thinks Carlos wasn’t in a place to attack it doesn’t matter. He was treated (as were other drivers) differently, ie the situation was biased in favour of Max.

That the situation hugely benefited Max does not mean that the decision was biased towards Max. It was biased towards spectacle.

[Poleman]

I am accusing the FIA for cheating, which they did. Mercedes had no way of pitting, since they would have to give up track position, which you don’t do in that situation. But discussing strategy in this race is quite meaningless and only deflecting, since the tyre offset in the end should not even had made a difference had the rules been applied properly. They weren’t, since the FIA wanted a show rather than a sport.

You seem to misunderstand the rules. Race director has overriding decision. The wording says that once the last lapped car passes the safety car that it is to come in the next lap. Well, not all lapped cars actually passed the safety car so the safety car technically can come in at the end of that lap. The point of the safety car period is for the safety of the crew cleaning up the wreck, which was completed. It isn't to ensure that the race leader wins with the race under yellow. It was green flag conditions and race control called in the safety car and green flagged the race because there was no longer a hazard on the track but not enough space for the entire field to unlap themselves. The issue you have is that the cars between Ham and Max were let through and Max was on better tyres. It was the right decision to let them race. Ham could have told his team to pit him for fresh tires, but his team insisted on track position. You are the one deflecting this key decision.

Let's agree that he has overriding decision.Only way i can see it needing an "override" is for safety or any other reason concerning said incident or situation.Theres no damn need to override the rules by rushing and going back and forth with announcements for the sake of entartainment and/or giving an unfair and unnessesary advantage to your interest.Just follow the protocol and finish under the SC,it has been done before. There would not be a single soul demanding an appeal or accusing Masi for doing his job correctly.
Anyone who would object that (RB/Merc/Ferrari e.t.c) would be just SALTY.

[Tom145145]

they were always going to restart the race. All year they have done everything to create more spectacle. Baku: red flag and standing restart for 2 laps. Hungary: wet conditions. start crash, still a standing instead of a rolling one. Jeddah: crash at first restart, red flag and again a standin restart. Mercedes should have known the FIA would do anything to have a final fight when the opportunity presented itself.

If the positions were reversed in AD they would have done the same. I fully agree they bent the rules, but I do not believe there was a bias towards Verstappen. If so, they would have handled differently on lap 1. The bias is only perceived by biased fans.

There was a uneven playing field in the last lap, put in place by the RD contrary to the rules. Even if one thinks Carlos wasn’t in a place to attack it doesn’t matter. He was treated (as were other drivers) differently, ie the situation was biased in favour of Max.

That the situation hugely benefited Max does not mean that the decision was biased towards Max. It was biased towards spectacle.

They may not have singled it out for Max because it’s him, but that doesn’t change The fact that he was the sole beneficiary of the uneven situation on track. A biased situation is not the same as displaying a bias towards someone, this was a biased situation of which Max benefited.

[mwillems]

Maldonado has nothing to do with this, yes it was a gamble, and who are you accusing of cheating? It was tough luck, but just not for Max. It's not Max's fault Hamilton was on old hards, that's his team's decision! There was an element of risk vs reward and Mercedes quite honestly chickened out. If they had fitted softs for Hamilton his superior pace surely would have seen him win. Sometimes it isn't the fastest car that wins and we've seen that all season. For Mercedes it was disaster-class!

We’ve been over this, if merc pitted Red Bull would’ve stayed out, then it would of finished under a sc and looked like fools for giving up track position

Perfect. If Mercedes pitted, RB stayed out... the race will finish under safety care. Then the RB will say all the rules are followed.

I bet the incident caused by Williams, may be pre planned.

Any way RB and MAX will get the WDC whatever out come of the race. It is "Match Fixed" well in advance.

You shouldn't have to plan for "Will the race director break precedent, change his mind at the last minute, unlap just a few, bring in the safety car earlier than it states in the rules or has been done in practise before and have a one lap championship shootout". Nobody should have to plan for that, you can't "gamble" for that. The rules should be clear for all to make their calculations. It's like gambling at roulette, placing a grand on black and whilst the wheel is spinning they decide to split all the numbers evenly into 8 colours. After you placed the bet. Well your calculations, or the constraints in which they exist just got thrown out of the window because the rug was pulled from underneath your feet and you didn't get a fair chance to go for the win.

If you do that in life with contracts, with employments, in relationships then you're going to get hassle or worse. It's no different here. If you behave in your own self interest (TV and entertainment) then those who care about the sporting and fairness are going to be p*ssed.

[Tvetovnato]

Thank you for your effort!

Wow it was so close. Stu is rig. So many things came together for Verstappen to win, including Mercedes reacting to Max pitting.
But also VSC without which Max would probably drop off, and Perez doing incredible job holding up Lewis.

So is the VSC also part of the conspiracy? I understand how RedBull got Latifi to crash for them, but where is the connection to the Alfas who tried twice to get a VSC?

Nooo
I'm just appreciating the race.
Mercedes was much faster than RB in race(as it's been for much of the season) and super fast on straights(unlike in quali where RB was faster )
So I'm just remembering what had to happen for max to be only 11s behind Lewis at the end of the race so he could take advantage of SC.

Interesting that Merc had an advantage on the straights in the race. Do you have some data on it? Thanks!