2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[SmallSoldier]

Happy New Year everyone. I have received PM's along the lines so I am taking the easy way and will try to answer them here since almost all the messages and questions seem to be along the same line. As I have answered some of you already several weeks ago, Honda will be involved in manufacturing the current PU's until 2025. The transition division has now become its own entity and has partnered with Red Bull. Moving forward, how transparent the information with regards to the PU will be up to Red Bull, not Honda.
I am very (I can't of the right word to use) pleased that many of you are still interested in Honda's involvement. The amount of resources used in 2021 to develop the PU for 2022 I would guess has exceeded any of the previous years. The new E10 fuel has required changes to the combustion process from the 94.25 fuel and several versions of the ICE designed for the new fuel have been running since summer break and a final version has been fitted into the new chassis and fired last week. I am very excited for the upcoming season. The new aero packages, tires, etc. should provide for some interesting outcomes in the season to come.

So it’s fair to say the development demands to get the engines working as well as they did on the previous spec of fuel is pushing R&D more than previous years because more than just redesigning an engine philosophy, this fuel change is about experimenting with ideas, trial and error, ways to extract the same level of performance from the new spec of fuel. This emphasises my point that the commitment to spend as much as they would if they were in Formula 1 is crucial. Because more than other years they are working with a new type of fuel which demands its own R&D effort.

On top of spending a lot in that development race (which Honda are reportedly behind on?) there is the regular elements to be spending R&D on to build on the engine (which was already brought forward as the ‘21 engine)

How will their updated (but otherwise final engine concept) stack up against the might of Mercedes’ and Ferrari who’s R&D is likely to be relentlessly pushing and throwing everything at their engines to bring a new and final engine for ‘22 now?

Thanks for sharing, I’m not sure how much to take from a best guess, as it’s important to quantify what the exceeded spending is on (trying to make it work with the new fuel specifically?) but your post really re-emphasises how much commitment is needed this past year from the manufacturers because the fuel change is clearly a much more demanding R&D effort to recover than first thought.

I don’t understand how you could have inferred all of that from his post… He is saying that the amount of resources thrown at these year’s engine has exceeded any of previous seasons, which means that Honda has done everything they could to provide Red Bull with the best possible engine for the next 3 years instead of slowing down.

You also say that “reportedly” Honda is behind on the development race… Who is reporting that? I haven’t read anything in regards to that, the only thing clear from Wazari’s point is that they have spent more resources in 2021 than they did in previous seasons.

How will they compare to Mercedes and Ferrari, no one knows… There is no data whatsoever to make such a comparison at this point… Every engine manufacturer has “relentlessly been pushing” on their 22 engines since for all of them it will be their last iteration.

[AeroDynamic]

Happy New Year everyone. I have received PM's along the lines so I am taking the easy way and will try to answer them here since almost all the messages and questions seem to be along the same line. As I have answered some of you already several weeks ago, Honda will be involved in manufacturing the current PU's until 2025. The transition division has now become its own entity and has partnered with Red Bull. Moving forward, how transparent the information with regards to the PU will be up to Red Bull, not Honda.
I am very (I can't of the right word to use) pleased that many of you are still interested in Honda's involvement. The amount of resources used in 2021 to develop the PU for 2022 I would guess has exceeded any of the previous years. The new E10 fuel has required changes to the combustion process from the 94.25 fuel and several versions of the ICE designed for the new fuel have been running since summer break and a final version has been fitted into the new chassis and fired last week. I am very excited for the upcoming season. The new aero packages, tires, etc. should provide for some interesting outcomes in the season to come.

So it’s fair to say the development demands to get the engines working as well as they did on the previous spec of fuel is pushing R&D more than previous years because more than just redesigning an engine philosophy, this fuel change is about experimenting with ideas, trial and error, ways to extract the same level of performance from the new spec of fuel. This emphasises my point that the commitment to spend as much as they would if they were in Formula 1 is crucial. Because more than other years they are working with a new type of fuel which demands its own R&D effort.

On top of spending a lot in that development race (which Honda are reportedly behind on?) there is the regular elements to be spending R&D on to build on the engine (which was already brought forward as the ‘21 engine)

How will their updated (but otherwise final engine concept) stack up against the might of Mercedes’ and Ferrari who’s R&D is likely to be relentlessly pushing and throwing everything at their engines to bring a new and final engine for ‘22 now?

Thanks for sharing, I’m not sure how much to take from a best guess, as it’s important to quantify what the exceeded spending is on (trying to make it work with the new fuel specifically?) but your post really re-emphasises how much commitment is needed this past year from the manufacturers because the fuel change is clearly a much more demanding R&D effort to recover than first thought.

I don’t understand how you could have inferred all of that from his post… He is saying that the amount of resources thrown at these year’s engine has exceeded any of previous seasons, which means that Honda has done everything they could to provide Red Bull with the best possible engine for the next 3 years instead of slowing down.

You also say that “reportedly” Honda is behind on the development race… Who is reporting that? I haven’t read anything in regards to that, the only thing clear from Wazari’s point is that they have spent more resources in 2021 than they did in previous seasons.

How will they compare to Mercedes and Ferrari, no one knows… There is no data whatsoever to make such a comparison at this point… Every engine manufacturer has “relentlessly been pushing” on their 22 engines since for all of them it will be their last iteration.

That was a 'guess' though, not a qualified fact. And no, it doesn't necessarily mean they did everything other teams would have. It could also mean the R&D to get the engines to recover performance from the new fuel is what's adding to what's spending more than before.. for example, all teams may be doing that, but quantify by how much more they are spending than previous years to produce a very strong package, that difference easily varies between the teams. I've merely suggested we don't know what budget, what more they may have spent, if Honda were not leaving the sport, and cease to promote their brand via the engine since it will be RBPowertrains..

You haven't seen the report? google it. Its the same one that Helmut Marko came out and downplayed.

[SmallSoldier]

So it’s fair to say the development demands to get the engines working as well as they did on the previous spec of fuel is pushing R&D more than previous years because more than just redesigning an engine philosophy, this fuel change is about experimenting with ideas, trial and error, ways to extract the same level of performance from the new spec of fuel. This emphasises my point that the commitment to spend as much as they would if they were in Formula 1 is crucial. Because more than other years they are working with a new type of fuel which demands its own R&D effort.

On top of spending a lot in that development race (which Honda are reportedly behind on?) there is the regular elements to be spending R&D on to build on the engine (which was already brought forward as the ‘21 engine)

How will their updated (but otherwise final engine concept) stack up against the might of Mercedes’ and Ferrari who’s R&D is likely to be relentlessly pushing and throwing everything at their engines to bring a new and final engine for ‘22 now?

Thanks for sharing, I’m not sure how much to take from a best guess, as it’s important to quantify what the exceeded spending is on (trying to make it work with the new fuel specifically?) but your post really re-emphasises how much commitment is needed this past year from the manufacturers because the fuel change is clearly a much more demanding R&D effort to recover than first thought.

I don’t understand how you could have inferred all of that from his post… He is saying that the amount of resources thrown at these year’s engine has exceeded any of previous seasons, which means that Honda has done everything they could to provide Red Bull with the best possible engine for the next 3 years instead of slowing down.

You also say that “reportedly” Honda is behind on the development race… Who is reporting that? I haven’t read anything in regards to that, the only thing clear from Wazari’s point is that they have spent more resources in 2021 than they did in previous seasons.

How will they compare to Mercedes and Ferrari, no one knows… There is no data whatsoever to make such a comparison at this point… Every engine manufacturer has “relentlessly been pushing” on their 22 engines since for all of them it will be their last iteration.

That was a 'guess' though, not a qualified fact. And no, it doesn't necessarily mean they did everything other teams would have. It could also mean the R&D to get the engines to recover performance from the new fuel is what's adding to what's spending more than before.. for example, all teams may be doing that, but quantify by how much more they are spending than previous years to produce a very strong package, that difference easily varies between the teams. I've merely suggested we don't know what budget, what more they may have spent, if Honda were not leaving the sport, and cease to promote their brand via the engine since it will be RBPowertrains..

You haven't seen the report? google it. Its the same one that Helmut Marko came out and downplayed.

This was you earlier today:

“Yeah the budget is being covered by Red Bull for '22 onwards, not '21 where the R&D was happening for the engine Freeze. Were Honda throwing as much resource and money at the final engine as the rest of the engine manufacturers?”

We don’t know what the budget for each engine manufacturer is, so you won’t know if they were investing as much, more or less than the others… What is clear that Honda didn’t stop investing in ‘21 even though they were leaving, apparently they even spend more than in previous years.

I’m failing to understand what’s the narrative that you are bringing forward… You ask how will they compare, no one knows… We don’t even know what concepts or new developments are been brought by the other manufacturers.

Also, what should I google? I just tried “Honda behind in development of 2022 formula 1 engine” and nothing came up… If you could be so kind, would love to read the report.

[AeroDynamic]

I don’t understand how you could have inferred all of that from his post… He is saying that the amount of resources thrown at these year’s engine has exceeded any of previous seasons, which means that Honda has done everything they could to provide Red Bull with the best possible engine for the next 3 years instead of slowing down.

You also say that “reportedly” Honda is behind on the development race… Who is reporting that? I haven’t read anything in regards to that, the only thing clear from Wazari’s point is that they have spent more resources in 2021 than they did in previous seasons.

How will they compare to Mercedes and Ferrari, no one knows… There is no data whatsoever to make such a comparison at this point… Every engine manufacturer has “relentlessly been pushing” on their 22 engines since for all of them it will be their last iteration.

That was a 'guess' though, not a qualified fact. And no, it doesn't necessarily mean they did everything other teams would have. It could also mean the R&D to get the engines to recover performance from the new fuel is what's adding to what's spending more than before.. for example, all teams may be doing that, but quantify by how much more they are spending than previous years to produce a very strong package, that difference easily varies between the teams. I've merely suggested we don't know what budget, what more they may have spent, if Honda were not leaving the sport, and cease to promote their brand via the engine since it will be RBPowertrains..

You haven't seen the report? google it. Its the same one that Helmut Marko came out and downplayed.

This was you earlier today:

“Yeah the budget is being covered by Red Bull for '22 onwards, not '21 where the R&D was happening for the engine Freeze. Were Honda throwing as much resource and money at the final engine as the rest of the engine manufacturers?”

We don’t know what the budget for each engine manufacturer is, so you won’t know if they were investing as much, more or less than the others… What is clear that Honda didn’t stop investing in ‘21 even though they were leaving, apparently they even spend more than in previous years.

I’m failing to understand what’s the narrative that you are bringing forward… You ask how will they compare, no one knows… We don’t even know what concepts or new developments are been brought by the other manufacturers.

Also, what should I google? I just tried “Honda behind in development of 2022 formula 1 engine” and nothing came up… If you could be so kind, would love to read the report.

I don’t have a narrative, just remain sceptical since those reports came out and offered my thought on why they may be behind other teams.

Also my bad, Marko didn’t downplay it, (I confused that for him downplaying Albon’s claim that RBR sacrificed a sizeable amount of ‘22 development for ‘21) he (Marko) was the source who came out and said it:

https://www.grandprix247.com/2022/01/09 ... 2022-fuel/

https://f1i.com/news/429933-red-bull-ne ... ngine.html

Was just a few weeks ago…

On the subject 16 hrs ago?

“When it comes to E10 fuel, the power is reduced,” Asaki told Motorsport.com’s Japan branch. ‘So the response of the engine to that fuel is the most important. I think that’s all we need to worry about. The engine skeleton has already been revamped, so we made changes to bring out the best performance with E10 fuel.”

Asaki: ‘It is very difficult after such a change’
Formula 1 has decided to adapt the fuel in order to generate fewer emissions. The result is that the teams have less power, but everyone tries to get rid of that by working hard on the engine. “We strive for maximum efficiency with E10 fuel,” says the Japanese. However, he does not want to say anything about the power of the new engine for Red Bull Racing. ‘That is a secret. Some say they have the same power as last year, but after such a change it’s very difficult.”

As he appears to be suggesting, much of the R&D is to rework the new fuel. As I said before, the ‘22 engine was brought forward a year early (perhaps to long term detriment by sacrificing more direct R&D time to the engine concept than they would’ve done if they were not leaving, hence rushing it to ‘21) and maybe, just maybe.. an aspect why it’s been so difficult for these phenomenal engineers at Honda, is working with less money / budget from Honda to develop solutions. It honestly wouldn’t surprise me. Why are Honda going to dump so much money and commitment to an engine they won’t be winning with to promote themselves, or be using come ‘26 with all new engines??

Compare the report to what’s coming out of the Ferrari and Mercedes camp, and Asaki himself, the room for scepticism is valid enough:
https://www.planetf1.com/news/shell-rec ... orsepower/

[SmallSoldier]

Asaki: ‘It is very difficult after such a change’
Formula 1 has decided to adapt the fuel in order to generate fewer emissions. The result is that the teams have less power, but everyone tries to get rid of that by working hard on the engine. “We strive for maximum efficiency with E10 fuel,” says the Japanese. However, he does not want to say anything about the power of the new engine for Red Bull Racing. ‘That is a secret. Some say they have the same power as last year, but after such a change it’s very difficult.”

As he appears to be suggesting, much of the R&D is to rework the new fuel. As I said before, the ‘22 engine was brought forward a year early (perhaps to long term detriment by sacrificing more direct R&D time to the engine concept than they would’ve done if they were not leaving, hence rushing it to ‘21) and maybe, just maybe.. an aspect why it’s been so difficult for these phenomenal engineers at Honda, is working with less money / budget from Honda to develop solutions. It honestly wouldn’t surprise me. Why are Honda going to dump so much money and commitment to an engine they won’t be winning with to promote themselves, or be using come ‘26 with all new engines??

Compare the report to what’s coming out of the Ferrari and Mercedes camp, and Asaki himself, the room for scepticism is valid enough:
https://www.planetf1.com/news/shell-rec ... orsepower/
[/quote]

You may have missed this explanation of Asaki’s statement:

When asked about how much does the E10 fuel affect the power? Asaki san said it was a "secret".
"Its a secret. It seems that other manufacturers said they reached the same level as last year, I think when they made such announcements,it must means it's difficult to output same power as last year."
——————————————————————
Asaki san seems pretty confident.In fact what Asaki san said was more like"I think when they made such announcements,it must means it's difficult to output same power as last year(for them)",if you understand japanese words and read the interview.So he may hinted that its not that difficult for Honda.

A lot can be lost in translation / interpretation…

In regards to Honda focusing their efforts on the fuel instead of hardware, we can’t infer it as a positive or a negative because it can be interpreted both ways:

Positive: They already have Hardware that makes them feel confident and instead of investing resources in new parts, they have spend most of them on how to work with the new fuel, therefore with a potential advantage versus the other manufacturers.

Negative: They haven’t invested in new hardware and therefore could be behind the other manufacturers that have invested in new parts.

It could be either way depending on what you want to believe or what you hope for… It is also relevant to note that the fact that the other manufacturers invested time and resources on new parts and improvement on their hardware doesn’t necessarily mean that it will confer them an advantage… It could bring reliability issues and teething issues with integration of new layouts/architectures.

[langedweil]

I equally fail to see the logic Aero is trying to put together. The fact he cannot grasp why Honda would 'dump' money in a project they were initially stepping away from, might lie in not being familiar with these kinds of big corp dynamics, investments etc. All besides the inmense incentive Honda still has (if they are really realy realy leaving everything behind) to develop the electric components, ES and driveability well within the confines of their 'green mission'.

To be honest, I totally read Wazari's reply very differenty ..
So, instead of assuming a million things based on some vague publications or interview quotes without context, maybe it's just better one just sits back and just wait a few more weeks.

[Ryar]

I equally fail to see the logic Aero is trying to put together. The fact he cannot grasp why Honda would 'dump' money in a project in a project they were initially stepping away from, might lie in not being familiar with these kinds of big corp dynamics, investments etc. All besides the inmense incentive Honda still has (if they are really realy realy leaving everything behind) to develop the electric components, ES and driveability well within the confines of their 'green mission'.

To be honest, I totally read Wazari's reply very differenty ..
So, instead of assuming a million things based on some vague publications or interview quotes without context, maybe it's just better one just sits back and just wait a few more weeks.

Aero's single source of truth, was part of a statement made by Marko and from there on, it was pure conjecture. While there are many articles and past statements from RB and Honda about their commitment for 2022 spec engine, which Aero doesn't want to consider, we would see how it all comes together in little over a month's time. Until then, he is free to express his thoughts.

[ispano6]

I am a bit surprised why this open data is so wrong now in this thread.

It is openly known:
- RB was desperately looking for another engine, first thing was the last minute Ferrari attempt of Torro.
- Honda needed a second team. One team is not enough for data. So they started to talk to Torro and Sauber beginning of 2017.
- Sauber was prime choice with Kaltenborn as she offered the Sauber factory (wind tunnel?) for other Honda projects. Something RB did not do.
- On the other hand Marco already clearly said they want Honda also for RB if the performance increases...beginning 2017!
- With Kaltenborn leaving the factory deal was forgotten, so Honda and Sauber closed the discussions.
- Torro saved the deal already in summer 2017, right when McLaren started to claim they leave. That all happend nearly simultaneously between the summer break and the Singapore GP.

During summer break of 2017 Honda had not finalized a deal for the 2018 season and did not have a team set in stone that they would be working with toward the end of 2017. Why? Because they were considering calling it quits. I'm not sure exactly what point you're trying to make but I am simply highlighting the original plan to work with Sauber fell through because of a decision made by Vasseur. Sauber did however honor an agreement to let a Honda young driver do testing in their 2017 car. Mclaren was already going to dump Honda regardless of the Sauber deal. Honda was ready to leave, the rest is history as we know it.

[Alexf1]

That was a 'guess' though, not a qualified fact. And no, it doesn't necessarily mean they did everything other teams would have. It could also mean the R&D to get the engines to recover performance from the new fuel is what's adding to what's spending more than before.. for example, all teams may be doing that, but quantify by how much more they are spending than previous years to produce a very strong package, that difference easily varies between the teams. I've merely suggested we don't know what budget, what more they may have spent, if Honda were not leaving the sport, and cease to promote their brand via the engine since it will be RBPowertrains..

You haven't seen the report? google it. Its the same one that Helmut Marko came out and downplayed.

This was you earlier today:

“Yeah the budget is being covered by Red Bull for '22 onwards, not '21 where the R&D was happening for the engine Freeze. Were Honda throwing as much resource and money at the final engine as the rest of the engine manufacturers?”

We don’t know what the budget for each engine manufacturer is, so you won’t know if they were investing as much, more or less than the others… What is clear that Honda didn’t stop investing in ‘21 even though they were leaving, apparently they even spend more than in previous years.

I’m failing to understand what’s the narrative that you are bringing forward… You ask how will they compare, no one knows… We don’t even know what concepts or new developments are been brought by the other manufacturers.

Also, what should I google? I just tried “Honda behind in development of 2022 formula 1 engine” and nothing came up… If you could be so kind, would love to read the report.

I don’t have a narrative, just remain sceptical since those reports came out and offered my thought on why they may be behind other teams.

Also my bad, Marko didn’t downplay it, (I confused that for him downplaying Albon’s claim that RBR sacrificed a sizeable amount of ‘22 development for ‘21) he (Marko) was the source who came out and said it:

https://www.grandprix247.com/2022/01/09 ... 2022-fuel/

https://f1i.com/news/429933-red-bull-ne ... ngine.html

Was just a few weeks ago…

On the subject 16 hrs ago?

“When it comes to E10 fuel, the power is reduced,” Asaki told Motorsport.com’s Japan branch. ‘So the response of the engine to that fuel is the most important. I think that’s all we need to worry about. The engine skeleton has already been revamped, so we made changes to bring out the best performance with E10 fuel.”

Asaki: ‘It is very difficult after such a change’
Formula 1 has decided to adapt the fuel in order to generate fewer emissions. The result is that the teams have less power, but everyone tries to get rid of that by working hard on the engine. “We strive for maximum efficiency with E10 fuel,” says the Japanese. However, he does not want to say anything about the power of the new engine for Red Bull Racing. ‘That is a secret. Some say they have the same power as last year, but after such a change it’s very difficult.”

As he appears to be suggesting, much of the R&D is to rework the new fuel. As I said before, the ‘22 engine was brought forward a year early (perhaps to long term detriment by sacrificing more direct R&D time to the engine concept than they would’ve done if they were not leaving, hence rushing it to ‘21) and maybe, just maybe.. an aspect why it’s been so difficult for these phenomenal engineers at Honda, is working with less money / budget from Honda to develop solutions. It honestly wouldn’t surprise me. Why are Honda going to dump so much money and commitment to an engine they won’t be winning with to promote themselves, or be using come ‘26 with all new engines??

Compare the report to what’s coming out of the Ferrari and Mercedes camp, and Asaki himself, the room for scepticism is valid enough:
https://www.planetf1.com/news/shell-rec ... orsepower/

Thank you all for all the thoughts you share about the Honda engine developments and it's possible performance in 2022 (as a RB engine). As organization structure has changed I think it becomes clear there have been some developments in the background. We can only guess how long ago these decisions have been made. Maybe much longer than we think. My thoughts are that as RB knew it had only a small time window of opportunity to escape the risk of having an underpowered engine for 4 years (like with Renault) they offered Honda in 2021 the money they had in reserve due to the budget cap kicking in and sold their rear wing space all in return for engine R&D.

[bauc]

Plot Twist

Honda set to extend direct Red Bull supply to 2025

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... 5/7677145/

[AeroDynamic]

Plot Twist

Honda set to extend direct Red Bull supply to 2025

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... 5/7677145/

This came out in other links in the thread; it’s a good position for RBR to not have to worry about manufacturing the engines themselves over the next 5 years.

Who is going to be Working on optimising it or addressing fixes / improvements via reliability concerns over the next 5 years? Can a Honda insider clear that up?

[AMG.Tzan]

Plot Twist

Honda set to extend direct Red Bull supply to 2025

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... 5/7677145/

Can't really understand Honda's thinking! Classic nonsense...

They'll continue to build engines for Red Bull yet they won't have the Honda name on them!

The engines are frozen so their move to pull out makes absolutely no sense at all! Since they'll continue to make the parts what's the point in pulling out?? No engine development=No costs of development!

I think Honda's pull out has more to do with their image "no more CO2 emissions, we're going green" ** than with the costs of engine building! I mean there isn't any other explanation...

**Yet they're still racing in Indycar without any kind of hybrid systems...

[Lefty8]

Plot Twist

Honda set to extend direct Red Bull supply to 2025

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... 5/7677145/

Can't really understand Honda's thinking! Classic Japanese nonsense...

They'll continue to build engines for Red Bull yet they won't have the Honda name on them!

The engines are frozen so their move to pull out makes absolutely no sense at all! Since they'll continue to make the parts what's the point in pulling out?? No engine development=No costs of development!

I think Honda's pull out has more to do with their image "no more CO2 emissions, we're going green" ** than with the costs of engine building! I mean there isn't any other explanation...

**Yet they're still racing in Indycar without any kind of hybrid systems...

It is purely to do with COP26 commitments. Indycar uses a Methanol fuel which although made from crude oil is considered "green".
F1 should have gone E85

[SmallSoldier]

Plot Twist

Honda set to extend direct Red Bull supply to 2025

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... 5/7677145/

Can't really understand Honda's thinking! Classic Japanese nonsense...

They'll continue to build engines for Red Bull yet they won't have the Honda name on them!

The engines are frozen so their move to pull out makes absolutely no sense at all! Since they'll continue to make the parts what's the point in pulling out?? No engine development=No costs of development!

I think Honda's pull out has more to do with their image "no more CO2 emissions, we're going green" ** than with the costs of engine building! I mean there isn't any other explanation...

**Yet they're still racing in Indycar without any kind of hybrid systems...

I have to agree… I don’t understand the move, why “quit” F1 when:

- You have achieved the level of performance needed to be successful
- You have already invested heavily into the project and additional investment will be minimal
- The engines are frozen
- You will continue to manufacture the engines and support your “customers”

I am afraid that the decision to exit was done before the above was in place, but I can’t find a reason not to reverse that decision… Unless is simply an ego thing.

I don’t buy that it is because of wanting to have a “green image”… At the end, everyone knows that they will continue to support RBR/AT with the manufacturing of engines.

[Jolle]

Plot Twist

Honda set to extend direct Red Bull supply to 2025

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... 5/7677145/

Can't really understand Honda's thinking! Classic Japanese nonsense...

They'll continue to build engines for Red Bull yet they won't have the Honda name on them!

The engines are frozen so their move to pull out makes absolutely no sense at all! Since they'll continue to make the parts what's the point in pulling out?? No engine development=No costs of development!

I think Honda's pull out has more to do with their image "no more CO2 emissions, we're going green" ** than with the costs of engine building! I mean there isn't any other explanation...

**Yet they're still racing in Indycar without any kind of hybrid systems...

I have to agree… I don’t understand the move, why “quit” F1 when:

- You have achieved the level of performance needed to be successful
- You have already invested heavily into the project and additional investment will be minimal
- The engines are frozen
- You will continue to manufacture the engines and support your “customers”

I am afraid that the decision to exit was done before the above was in place, but I can’t find a reason not to reverse that decision… Unless is simply an ego thing.

I don’t buy that it is because of wanting to have a “green image”… At the end, everyone knows that they will continue to support RBR/AT with the manufacturing of engines.

Marketing. Honda, just as Mercedes, Renault and Fiat’s brands want to have a more green image in support to their EV switch. A bit more then a year ago Mercedes announced that AMG is going the main name for their team (a brand in their stable that isn’t perceived as green anyway), Renault switched to the Alpine name for that reason and Fiat and co already have Alfa and Ferrari of course. If Honda could have done a “AMG” status of Mugen instead of the Type-R badge, but they didn’t..