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Yes, I know, but I believe the original message and not the one who was replying (your source).
Indy is going hybrid too, but Honda Japan doesn't have much to do with that. That's more or less American HPD.
Think so too. Now that the VAG rumours are getting stronger it seems like Honda wants to make sure their IP will not be used for creating the 2026 RBP engine with Porsche paying RB to have their badge on it. The 'we will not touch them at all" remark by Marko seems to point in this direction. The big question mark will be: who's going to design the 2026 RBP engine, VAG? Maybe only very very large amounts of VAG money can make Honda reconsider and sell their IP to them with RBP producing them
Part of Honda’s decision making is likely somehow linked to the connection of Volkswagen and RBR in the future. Volkswagen is a super power in the automobile industry, with their array of road car businesses. Why would Honda hand over their IP in that scenario? They want it for their own road car business don’t they?
It seems it will be an installed base of F1 engineers supported by their VAG factory counterparts, similar to Brixworth and AMG. This engine base may actually come into conflict now with McLaren because Audi and VW , Prosche won't want to duplicate efforts but both McLaren and RedBull would want works engine status.Alexf1 wrote: ↑30 Jan 2022, 08:53Think so too. Now that the VAG rumours are getting stronger it seems like Honda wants to make sure their IP will not be used for creating the 2026 RBP engine with Porsche paying RB to have their badge on it. The 'we will not touch them at all" remark by Marko seems to point in this direction. The big question mark will be: who's going to design the 2026 RBP engine, VAG? Maybe only very very large amounts of VAG money can make Honda reconsider and sell their IP to them with RBP producing them
VW is not going to supply McLaren if they don’t take over the company, McLaren is to much of a competitor for Lamborghini, Porsche and the R8. The other way round, if they take over McLaren, why supply one of your biggest competitors RedBull?Sieper wrote: ↑31 Jan 2022, 17:05Yes, Mclaren is now 3rd customer of Mercedes (historically, not as a measure of importance) so there is a willingness to accept that, but for sure, that would be a big talking point for the VAG group. If it would be Porsche/redbull and Audi/Mclaren. But we also have SAT in play that could fulfill the customer team role.
It's just politics, make of that what you will. Honda recognizes the marketing/technological value of F1 and motorsports in general. Politics makes simple things complicated in a needless way. So you need complicated solutions to satisfy simple needs.ispano6 wrote: ↑30 Jan 2022, 04:43Indy is going hybrid too, but Honda Japan doesn't have much to do with that. That's more or less American HPD.
Besides, Honda's original reason for leaving F1 wasn't about funding or a green image - it was that they needed the personnel expertise and knowledge applied to road car projects. Add to that there was a changing of president from Hachigo to Mibe who thinks differently , and many younger engineers have started to gain experience such that they can be relied on more for F1. It seems like Honda Japan at least isn't controlled by bean-counters.
My guess is they are pulling out of Europe all together, at least they stopped investing. They closed both of the factories last year and sales are down to just 70.000 units in total in the whole of Europe.godlameroso wrote: ↑31 Jan 2022, 18:42It's just politics, make of that what you will. Honda recognizes the marketing/technological value of F1 and motorsports in general. Politics makes simple things complicated in a needless way. So you need complicated solutions to satisfy simple needs.ispano6 wrote: ↑30 Jan 2022, 04:43Indy is going hybrid too, but Honda Japan doesn't have much to do with that. That's more or less American HPD.
Besides, Honda's original reason for leaving F1 wasn't about funding or a green image - it was that they needed the personnel expertise and knowledge applied to road car projects. Add to that there was a changing of president from Hachigo to Mibe who thinks differently , and many younger engineers have started to gain experience such that they can be relied on more for F1. It seems like Honda Japan at least isn't controlled by bean-counters.
Why not both?Jolle wrote: ↑31 Jan 2022, 17:22VW is not going to supply McLaren if they don’t take over the company, McLaren is to much of a competitor for Lamborghini, Porsche and the R8. The other way round, if they take over McLaren, why supply one of your biggest competitors RedBull?Sieper wrote: ↑31 Jan 2022, 17:05Yes, Mclaren is now 3rd customer of Mercedes (historically, not as a measure of importance) so there is a willingness to accept that, but for sure, that would be a big talking point for the VAG group. If it would be Porsche/redbull and Audi/Mclaren. But we also have SAT in play that could fulfill the customer team role.
If there are talks behind the scene, it’s probably VW exploring the different possibilities. Either a McLaren takeover or supplying RedBull. Not both.
I agree with the two teams. We’ve seen in the past, you start off with one (midfield) team, then progress to a two team strategy, with one prime and one mid fielder. So, start with a team like Sauber or Williams, then take McLaren the second or third your. Two ambitious teams at once, not even Ferrari or Mercedes want/can do that (look at Renault how that failed). RedBull played it perfectly with Honda, something McLaren should have done with Manor. Other great example was how Mercedes used Sauber as a jumping point, before going all in with McLaren. Peugeot is another prime example how starting at an ambitious team just doesn’t work.basti313 wrote: ↑31 Jan 2022, 19:22Why not both?Jolle wrote: ↑31 Jan 2022, 17:22VW is not going to supply McLaren if they don’t take over the company, McLaren is to much of a competitor for Lamborghini, Porsche and the R8. The other way round, if they take over McLaren, why supply one of your biggest competitors RedBull?Sieper wrote: ↑31 Jan 2022, 17:05Yes, Mclaren is now 3rd customer of Mercedes (historically, not as a measure of importance) so there is a willingness to accept that, but for sure, that would be a big talking point for the VAG group. If it would be Porsche/redbull and Audi/Mclaren. But we also have SAT in play that could fulfill the customer team role.
If there are talks behind the scene, it’s probably VW exploring the different possibilities. Either a McLaren takeover or supplying RedBull. Not both.
You need two, better three teams to be competitive also in the future. Otherwise you do not get the data on reliability you need to improve.
VW and McLaren will not make the Honda error and start with one team. So with McLaren I only see crazy solutions like Haas moving to McLaren parts and VW engine...I think a big solution with McLaren, RB and Torro would be my choice if I had the chance to choose.
Why would VW need RBR PU plant? Why wouldn't RBR be going out on it's own to create it's own PU ? Based on the people we've heard of them hiring . It sounds like VW is not where they're going?basti313 wrote: ↑31 Jan 2022, 19:22Why not both?Jolle wrote: ↑31 Jan 2022, 17:22VW is not going to supply McLaren if they don’t take over the company, McLaren is to much of a competitor for Lamborghini, Porsche and the R8. The other way round, if they take over McLaren, why supply one of your biggest competitors RedBull?Sieper wrote: ↑31 Jan 2022, 17:05Yes, Mclaren is now 3rd customer of Mercedes (historically, not as a measure of importance) so there is a willingness to accept that, but for sure, that would be a big talking point for the VAG group. If it would be Porsche/redbull and Audi/Mclaren. But we also have SAT in play that could fulfill the customer team role.
If there are talks behind the scene, it’s probably VW exploring the different possibilities. Either a McLaren takeover or supplying RedBull. Not both.
You need two, better three teams to be competitive also in the future. Otherwise you do not get the data on reliability you need to improve.
VW and McLaren will not make the Honda error and start with one team. So with McLaren I only see crazy solutions like Haas moving to McLaren parts and VW engine...I think a big solution with McLaren, RB and Torro would be my choice if I had the chance to choose.