2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

[dans79]

Imho Wheatley has been more restrained than Toto when getting on the radio. Lobbying is lobbying but especially Toto at times seemed to just talk to his subordinate. That is not what the RD is, they have a very clear, and tough, task to fulfill.

https://www.racefans.net/2021/07/18/bri ... -hamilton/

Horner strait up lying to try and sway Massi

Red Bull team principal Christian Horner told Masi that Hamilton “was never anywhere near alongside” Verstappen.

Horner strait up sway Massi and the stewards

“We could have had a massive accident. Thank God he’s walked away unscathed. I hope you’re going to deal with it appropriately.”

Jonathan Wheatley also trying to make absolute statements trying to sway how the stewards address the issue.

Red Bull team manager Jonathan Wheatley joined in, telling Masi: “I’ve watched this replay several times now Michael and I’m feeling really cross about it. That corner there Michael – that’s not a place to stick a wheel up the inside of a car.”

in short Red Bull talks down at Masi just as much as any other team!

[dans79]

Still, may be good to have a standard rule like 'no SC in the last X laps or Y% of the race' if they want to ensure a racing finish, and to ensure that teams know exactly what to expect without controversy.

Personally it doesn't matter to me one way or the other, as long as the rules/guidelines are followed. A more important issue for me is that the FIA be held responsible and forced to address issue when they screw up.

For as long as I can remember the FIA has acted like a corrupt police department when one of their own makes mistakes, or questionable decisions.

[AeroDynamic]

As I anticipated though, a lot of your posting is derived out of "Max doesn't have an asterisk on his Championship triumph. The Championship is decided throughout the season. Hamilton..."

what has any of that got to do with what went wrong in the part of Masi?

I don't see where Hamilton's championship would come with a Huge Asterisk. A smaller one than Max's I would say. About as small as Nico Rosbergs in 2016?? and arguably that doesn't have an asterisk.

If you crash, or get crashed into, (not deliberately at least) or your engine fails.. or something fails.. that's motorsports. that is what you sign up for.

In no sport, is rule breaking and rule officiating failures ever part of the game. That is an asterisk. So is Spa. Suddenly we want to justify this result because one driver had a bit more bad luck on track? even though you can argue he had plenty luck off track with the rules from Masi, and the change of regulations that season which brought the better performance to his car.

too many drivers have lost titles they couldve/shouldve won but took a loss. We aren't going to start making dodgy results 'okay' on the basis of how much bad luck you had before. In that case, we should refuse to respect a number of title wins from other drivers... jut no.

Not saying that Max doesn't have an asterisk. Saying it would be there regardless of who won. And sure, you see it as a smaller one, because you care less about mid-season rule changes and well, they benefitted your team. So I regard those differently, because my opinion on both those grounds is different. And sure, the perception with the larger public may be different because the last race incident was very visible, while the rule changes were more subtle (and the impact hard to quantify). Doesn't mean it wasn't there.

And once again, I am not trying to make dodgy results ok. I never said they were ok. I've been clear that I think Hamilton deserved to win the race, and Verstappen deserved to win the championship overall considering all controversial FIA decisions. That doesn't mean that they literally cancel eachother out; every dodgy decision in itself is one too many.

But all of this is a detour from what we were actually discussing, which is the role of Wheatley. And there my point has been made. You can't blame Wheatley for making suggestions on the radio, because everyone was doing it. The principle of lobbying is problematic, not a single occasion based on the perceived outcome. You also cannot blame Wheatley for Masi making a wrong decision.The decision was wrong because it was against the rulebook, regardless of whether it was or was not influenced by what Masi was saying, and regardless of whether he even was saying anything.

Just to pick up on this, we do agree somewhere in the middle, there is some overlap: naturally it is ultimately Masi's responsibility, what he decides to do and what action he takes. And I firmly hold him responsible for his own decisions. Hence why I don't agree with Masi deniers who say he did nothing wrong and should remain RD. I think he should step aside into another role in a new structure. He has made too many poorly judged decisions in the role and shown incompetence in managing lobbying.

So where I've come from is not to say that its RBR's blame for what type of decision he took, I just hold them responsible for lobbying and successfully doing so in a case where a racing official / RD broke the rules and decisively in the lobbying teams favour, resulting in illegitimate race authoring.. and ultimately, a crooked race result that was crucial to their Championship victory. that's it.

[morefirejules08]

Imho Wheatley has been more restrained than Toto when getting on the radio. Lobbying is lobbying but especially Toto at times seemed to just talk to his subordinate. That is not what the RD is, they have a very clear, and tough, task to fulfill.

https://www.racefans.net/2021/07/18/bri ... -hamilton/

Horner strait up lying to try and sway Massi

Red Bull team principal Christian Horner told Masi that Hamilton “was never anywhere near alongside” Verstappen.

Horner strait up sway Massi and the stewards

“We could have had a massive accident. Thank God he’s walked away unscathed. I hope you’re going to deal with it appropriately.”

Jonathan Wheatley also trying to make absolute statements trying to sway how the stewards address the issue.

Red Bull team manager Jonathan Wheatley joined in, telling Masi: “I’ve watched this replay several times now Michael and I’m feeling really cross about it. That corner there Michael – that’s not a place to stick a wheel up the inside of a car.”

in short Red Bull talks down at Masi just as much as any other team!

Wheatley has a way that doesn't sound harsh or aggressive, he sounds more like an accountant when he speaks, where Toto's accent, deeper voice and emotion can come across as the opposite so I think that's where the illusion of restraint comes in.

[AeroDynamic]

I think Sieper is right on some occasions, Toto did talk down to Michael, although I only remember it about the Blue flags in Barcelona I think it was. But I think that's more rude than anything.

Wheatley was decisively manipulative .. with sentiments like

• Silverstone: JW "I'm really angry Michael" and CH "You don't throw a wheel up the inside of copse, I hope you're going to deal with it appropriately"
• Brazil: JW "That's all about Lettin' Em Race Michael"

Toto had an Authoritative tone out of irritation.

The RBR guys used emotions and sentiments to cultivate a decision or interpretation of what incident took place on track. It was purely about being persuasive. That is just unacceptable.

If I had to compare this communication and manipulation to anything.. even the tone of voice..

I would say HAL9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey... when HAL was trying to persuade Dave.

JW uses persuasion techniques to manipulate for sure.

[dans79]

Wheatley has a way that doesn't sound harsh or aggressive, he sounds more like an accountant when he speaks, where Toto's accent, deeper voice and emotion can come across as the opposite so I think that's where the illusion of restraint comes in.

That's a possibility. I've worked with a wide range of people from all over the world, so I pretty much ignore tone and focus on the words only.

[Big Tea]

Imho Wheatley has been more restrained than Toto when getting on the radio. Lobbying is lobbying but especially Toto at times seemed to just talk to his subordinate. T

in short Red Bull talks down at Masi just as much as any other team!

Wheatley has a way that doesn't sound harsh or aggressive, he sounds more like an accountant when he speaks, where Toto's accent, deeper voice and emotion can come across as the opposite so I think that's where the illusion of restraint comes in.
[/quote]

Michael, I'll be back

[morefirejules08]

in short Red Bull talks down at Masi just as much as any other team!

Wheatley has a way that doesn't sound harsh or aggressive, he sounds more like an accountant when he speaks, where Toto's accent, deeper voice and emotion can come across as the opposite so I think that's where the illusion of restraint comes in.

Michael, I'll be back
[/quote]

[Sieper]

Imho Wheatley has been more restrained than Toto when getting on the radio. Lobbying is lobbying but especially Toto at times seemed to just talk to his subordinate. That is not what the RD is, they have a very clear, and tough, task to fulfill.

https://www.racefans.net/2021/07/18/bri ... -hamilton/

Horner strait up lying to try and sway Massi

Red Bull team principal Christian Horner told Masi that Hamilton “was never anywhere near alongside” Verstappen.

Horner strait up sway Massi and the stewards

“We could have had a massive accident. Thank God he’s walked away unscathed. I hope you’re going to deal with it appropriately.”

Jonathan Wheatley also trying to make absolute statements trying to sway how the stewards address the issue.

Red Bull team manager Jonathan Wheatley joined in, telling Masi: “I’ve watched this replay several times now Michael and I’m feeling really cross about it. That corner there Michael – that’s not a place to stick a wheel up the inside of a car.”

in short Red Bull talks down at Masi just as much as any other team!

A lot of emotion reading though in your post, not sure if intended? There is a very big difference between being in disagreement and between talking down (your words) on someone. Wheatley imho never stepped over the line of treating someone from the stewards as an employee.

[dans79]

Imho Wheatley has been more restrained than Toto when getting on the radio. Lobbying is lobbying but especially Toto at times seemed to just talk to his subordinate. That is not what the RD is, they have a very clear, and tough, task to fulfill.

https://www.racefans.net/2021/07/18/bri ... -hamilton/

Horner strait up lying to try and sway Massi

Red Bull team principal Christian Horner told Masi that Hamilton “was never anywhere near alongside” Verstappen.

Horner strait up sway Massi and the stewards

“We could have had a massive accident. Thank God he’s walked away unscathed. I hope you’re going to deal with it appropriately.”

Jonathan Wheatley also trying to make absolute statements trying to sway how the stewards address the issue.

Red Bull team manager Jonathan Wheatley joined in, telling Masi: “I’ve watched this replay several times now Michael and I’m feeling really cross about it. That corner there Michael – that’s not a place to stick a wheel up the inside of a car.”

in short Red Bull talks down at Masi just as much as any other team!

A lot of emotion reading though in your post, not sure if intended? There is a very big difference between being in disagreement and between talking down (your words) on someone. Wheatley imho never stepped over the line of treating someone from the stewards as an employee.

Usually when your are in disagreement with someone you use phrases like, "I think", "in my opinion", "I believe", "I feel" "as I read it", "as i understand it, "etc etc. That's a stark contrast to the authoritarian absolute style statements highlighted above imo.

[PlatinumZealot]

There will never be an asterisks next to Max's 2021 title ever because he did absolutely nothing wrong or illegal or questionable. Max made a clean pass and Hamilton failed to keep Max behind. Simple as that. Lewis and Bono knew what the situation was. It was a fitting end to a controversial season, where Max and RedBull Honda ended Lewis and Mercedes dominance. That is how it will be remembered!

It doesn't work like that, though. The asterisk is put there by the public, not any single person or group of people; because this is the age of the internet.

Whether we like it or not, any time we look back on the 2021 championship there will always be an astrisk or a footnote referencing the events in the last five laps of that Abu Dhabi. It's just inseparable. This is what they mean by the asterisk.

We do not mean that Max does not deserve the championship. We mean that no one cannot tell the story of Max Verstappen's first championship without qualifying it with Masi's manipulation of the rules.

Even the most ardent supporter cannot put this to the back of his mind and pretend everything was clean and rosy when there was only one way it would have gone without the intervention of Michael Masi.

Max, Christian, Helmut all want to return fighting this year to prove that they could have won it indisuptably.

[AeroDynamic]

https://www.racefans.net/2021/07/18/bri ... -hamilton/

Horner strait up lying to try and sway Massi


Horner strait up sway Massi and the stewards


Jonathan Wheatley also trying to make absolute statements trying to sway how the stewards address the issue.


in short Red Bull talks down at Masi just as much as any other team!

A lot of emotion reading though in your post, not sure if intended? There is a very big difference between being in disagreement and between talking down (your words) on someone. Wheatley imho never stepped over the line of treating someone from the stewards as an employee.

Usually when your are in disagreement with someone you use phrases like, "I think", "in my opinion", "I believe", "I feel" "as I read it", "as i understand it, "etc etc. That's a stark contrast to the authoritarian absolute style statements highlighted above imo.

Yeah, there other ones you quoted, together with the other ones like in Brazil etc.. just highlight how desperately manipulative and persuasive they were trying to be in their lobbying. Now that I've gone over all the instances again, I actually see a massive disparity and actually, RBR's lobbying is below the belt and unethical. It's actually pathetic, hocus-pocus as I said all season.

Ron Meadows in contrast would be more factual i.e. "Significantly alongside" or came from a place of questioning then asserting.

Whats the worse toto did? The safety car in Abu Dhabi? ok there's that. But after listening to RBR set the precedent in their lobbying all season since Silverstone, can one really hold that against him so much? I don't see how if you don't complain about the RBR instances with as much noise. RBR lobbied at every opportunity to persuade the RD to not penalise or to penalise, while there were incidences of Mercedes refraining from doing so.

RBR are arguably the catalyst for all this behaviour.

[dans79]

RBR lobbied at every opportunity to persuade the RD to not penalise or to penalise, while there were incidences of Mercedes refraining from doing so.

We can't say for sure that Mercedes refrained, all we can say is that if they did it wasn't broadcast!

[AeroDynamic]

RBR lobbied at every opportunity to persuade the RD to not penalise or to penalise, while there were incidences of Mercedes refraining from doing so.

We can't say for sure that Mercedes refrained, all we can say is that if they did it wasn't broadcast!

Did they lobby Monza? You are right, I don't remember anything being broadcast. But I remember in the post race interview Toto refrained unlike Horner in Silverstone.

[NathanOlder]

RBR lobbied at every opportunity to persuade the RD to not penalise or to penalise, while there were incidences of Mercedes refraining from doing so.

We can't say for sure that Mercedes refrained, all we can say is that if they did it wasn't broadcast!

Did they lobby Monza? You are right, I don't remember anything being broadcast. But I remember in the post race interview Toto refrained unlike Horner in Silverstone.

RedBull at Silverstone were vile, the words coming from Horners mouth were utterly disgusting!

“was never anywhere near alongside”

“I’ve watched this replay several times now Michael and I’m feeling really cross about it. That corner there Michael – that’s not a place to stick a wheel up the inside of a car.”

These are words of a clown who has never watched any race at Silverstone in his life.

Out of interest , what were the words to Masi after the incidents in Monza and Silverstone ? were they are pathetic as Horners ? were they as big of a lie as Horners ? How anyone can defend horner that day is impossible to understand