Mercedes W13

[Hoffman900]

Kyle.engineers comments that the front and rear wings are among the most cranked we’ve seen so far. Given they’re relatively ‘inefficient’ aero surfaces compared to, for example, the underfloor and diffuser, does this suggest they’ve struggled to extract the downforce there and need it from the wings instead?

Or are they just doing a ‘downforce at all costs’ type approach…

I got to same questions looking at the difference between Ferrari and Merc rear wings.

'Downforce at all costs' is a risky exercise now as Honda has been on par with performance and noises from Ferrari claim they have regained a lot of power. The engine power is even more skewed situation due to E10. Unless, Merc have found a miracle fountain of power that then allows them to go for 2019 philosophy of 'Downforce at all costs' . The other plausible theory could be, this is once again an old iteration of the development phase and they have another, more advanced version scheduled to come out.

Or they have an otherwise low drag car and so the wings aren't an issue.

Or they have just presented the car in its "it's wet for the filming day and we don't want to bend the new car" maximum downforce trim.

Or none of the teams have shown a representative car yet.

Or...

These two, for sure. The teams aren't dumb and know full well the other teams as well as outside analysts will be pouring over the cars (mostly misguided amateur sleuths, as well as some pretty competent people). Pretty much the whole motorsports world is watching. It's sometimes a good time to actually misdirect your competitors (and fans / media at large). We would do this in the amateur ranks and with fans that would come by and check the cars out. You don't lie, but you're careful with your words and direct their attention elsewhere so they completely miss what really matters. They're just so happy to talk to you and check the car out, and they don't really know better.

[SmallSoldier]

I mean these:
https://i.imgur.com/fOzZqjV.png

That's new AFAIK. Not sure how that gets around the minimum radius rule, other than Mercedes arguing that is part of the mirror mount, as there is a tiny section of the structure which is actually attached to the mirror. The FIA must be happy with that as all teams were apparently in discussion with the FIA during development of these cars regarding loopholes and grey areas.

I guess you suppose this is the same thing Blackout? The difference this time, I guess, is that Mercedes haven't even tried to make it look like its primary purpose is for mounting the mirror, and this time strakes and vanes are specifically banned by the regulations apart from where specifically prescribed -- there isn't the free box with no minimum radius rule for the bargeboards anymore.
https://i.imgur.com/gflVB9k.png

Yeah I was referring to that too. I do think Mercedes is claiming it is part of the mirror support.

That’s a real stretch!! There is around 99% of it that does nothing for the mirror

Teams have been using a similar type of mirror support in the past (McLaren last year for example)… Maybe not as extreme in terms of where the air is been driven to, but the same type of support… They do conform from a legality point of view.

[JPower]

Two very recently former F1 aerodynamicists post videos and people question their bonafides like they know better. Gotta love the internet.

[Zynerji]

Could that "strake" in front of the rear wheel just be the casing of a laser ride height sensor that penetrates the floor in that area (facing down)?

[Hoffman900]

Two very recently former F1 aerodynamicists post videos and people question their bomafides like they know better. Gotta love the internet.

I'm not questioning, but they know full well their limitations of ocular wind tunnels as well as cfd'ing without calibration, and say as such. Also, knowing the limitations, I'm not going to hang my coat on their every little guess.

The teams know how to manipulate how people cling onto to ANY little thing. I've been involved in motorsports in the lower ranks, people do this there too, and I've literally been guilty of misdirecting well meaning and enthusiastic fans.

[JPower]

Two very recently former F1 aerodynamicists post videos and people question their bomafides like they know better. Gotta love the internet.

I'm not questioning, but they know full well their limitations of ocular wind tunnel as well as rudimentary cfd'ing.

The teams know how to manipulate how people cling onto to ANY little thing. I've been involved in motorsports in the lower ranks, people do this there too.

I know full well they’ve got a better handle on what F1 teams might be trying to acheive than probably anyone else on this forum given their recent employment.

I’m not saying they know everything amd no they don’t have teams’ full data, I’m saying that people saying “oh, maybe that’s why they aren’t at Mercedes anymore” is insanely dismissive.

[Hoffman900]

Two very recently former F1 aerodynamicists post videos and people question their bomafides like they know better. Gotta love the internet.

I'm not questioning, but they know full well their limitations of ocular wind tunnel as well as rudimentary cfd'ing.

The teams know how to manipulate how people cling onto to ANY little thing. I've been involved in motorsports in the lower ranks, people do this there too.

I know full well they’ve got a better handle on what F1 teams might be trying to acheive than probably anyone else on this forum given their recent employment.

I’m not saying they know everything amd no they don’t have teams’ full data, I’m saying that people saying “oh, maybe that’s why they aren’t at Mercedes anymore” is insanely dismissive.

Agreed, that is dismissive. From what I know, I'd probably leave that industry after 2-5 years as well. You can make more money and have better hours elsewhere. There is a lot of "we'll work you like a dog and not pay you well because you should feel privileged to be working here" in motorsports.

[Zynerji]

I'm not questioning, but they know full well their limitations of ocular wind tunnel as well as rudimentary cfd'ing.

The teams know how to manipulate how people cling onto to ANY little thing. I've been involved in motorsports in the lower ranks, people do this there too.

I know full well they’ve got a better handle on what F1 teams might be trying to acheive than probably anyone else on this forum given their recent employment.

I’m not saying they know everything amd no they don’t have teams’ full data, I’m saying that people saying “oh, maybe that’s why they aren’t at Mercedes anymore” is insanely dismissive.

Agreed, that is dismissive. From what I know, I'd probably leave that industry after 2-5 years as well. You can make more money and have better hours elsewhere. There is a lot of "we'll work you like a dog and not pay you well because you should feel privileged to be working here" in motorsports.

The post-apocalypse clean up of that type of Meat Grinder Management is the worst thing I end up fixing in my line of work.

I wish more people understood the value of a Learning and Growth framework in anything that requires high-performance teams to deliver on a deadline.

[Hoffman900]

I know full well they’ve got a better handle on what F1 teams might be trying to acheive than probably anyone else on this forum given their recent employment.

I’m not saying they know everything amd no they don’t have teams’ full data, I’m saying that people saying “oh, maybe that’s why they aren’t at Mercedes anymore” is insanely dismissive.

Agreed, that is dismissive. From what I know, I'd probably leave that industry after 2-5 years as well. You can make more money and have better hours elsewhere. There is a lot of "we'll work you like a dog and not pay you well because you should feel privileged to be working here" in motorsports.

The post-apocalypse clean up of that type of Meat Grinder Management is the worst thing I end up fixing in my line of work.

I wish more people understood the value of a Learning and Growth framework in anything that requires high-performance teams to deliver on a deadline.

Agreed and I have had to clean it up before as well.

As long as they have a pipeline of desperate to get into motorsports engineers / technicians / drivers, they can get away with it. The perk is you go do that, and then leverage it for something better after, like Kyle seems to be doing.

[Pandamasque]

I believe the most interesting part is how Mercedes went the opposite way of everyone by putting the high section of floor inlet inboard, as opposed to outboard like every other car so far.

I'm not an aerodynamicist, but it seems like a more obvious solution to feed air that's the furthest from the wheel wake into the underfloor while pushing more of the dirty outboard air wide. But clearly other teams somehow found the opposite solution more efficient.

Also, do you think the mirror stay trick will be banned by 2023 or earlier? This clearly violates the very purpose of the regs.

PS: When Kyle said in one of his videos that people can't just look at cars and claim that one solution is superior to another without actually seeing the data, he obviously hasn't been to F1T.

[Hoffman900]

I believe the most interesting part is how Mercedes went the opposite way of everyone by putting the high section of floor inlet inboard, as opposed to outboard like every other car so far.

I'm not an aerodynamicist, but it seems like a more obvious solution to feed air that's the furthest from the wheel wake into the underfloor while pushing more of the dirty outboard air wide. But clearly other teams somehow found the opposite solution more efficient.

Also, do you think the mirror stay trick will be banned by 2023 or earlier? This clearly violates the very purpose of the regs.

PS: When Kyle said in one of his videos that people can't just look at cars and claim that one solution is superior to another without actually seeing the data, he obviously hasn't been to F1T.

Here or any forum, and the internet in general.

I think it will, but I also think Mercedes threw it out there at launch to get a rise out of people as well. Dare I say, troll the other teams? My guess, if it gets banned, it likely won't have much of an effect and it might be being used as a distraction. The trick is you throw one obvious thing in and everyone looks at that and ignores the ten other items going on elsewhere. The other teams aren't that silly to fall for that, but most of F1twitter / media will.

[Henri]

All great looking cars

[FittingMechanics]

That may be why he’s not a Merc engineer anymore?

Right? Though, no doubt it's likely from burn out (working for yourself, if you can pull it off, is probably a better gig hours wise). Also, we don't even know what parts of the aero program he was involved in. He could have been a busy-be or been involved in a lot. That said, I really enjoy what Kyle is doing and am a fan of his channel, as I believe he is the most sincere in his analyst and is obviously very competent, and is honest about the limitations of these types of analysis.

Those calling out Merc, what specifically are they not legal on?

Kyle Engineers explained in one of his videos why he quit his job at Mercedes F1. In essence both he and his wife found living in English countryside not compatible with their lifestyle. He enjoyed the work but his personal life suffered so he chose to quit.

If you want to know more, just check his videos - there is one where he talks about it.

[Hoffman900]

That may be why he’s not a Merc engineer anymore?

Right? Though, no doubt it's likely from burn out (working for yourself, if you can pull it off, is probably a better gig hours wise). Also, we don't even know what parts of the aero program he was involved in. He could have been a busy-be or been involved in a lot. That said, I really enjoy what Kyle is doing and am a fan of his channel, as I believe he is the most sincere in his analyst and is obviously very competent, and is honest about the limitations of these types of analysis.

Those calling out Merc, what specifically are they not legal on?

Kyle Engineers explained in one of his ideas why he quit his job at Mercedes F1. In essence both he and his wife found living in English countryside not compatible with their lifestyle. He enjoyed the work but his personal life suffered so he chose to quit.

If you want to know more, just check his videos - there is one where he talks about it.

That doesn't surprise me. You hear similar things in F1 as well as other motorsports fields. The Charlotte suburbs and Indy aren't for everyone either.

A career in motorsports isn't really compatible with having a personal life outside of it. It's a good thing to do in your twenties, but if you have other hobbies and value personal relationships, it's not a forever thing.

[siskue2005]

Great analysis by ex Mercedes f1 aerodynamists

21:18: "Now after reading the rules I genuinely don't understand how is this legal."

That's exactly what I think about this floor.

He is talking about different section of the floor, its bulge in front of the rear tyre is what he is talking about in 21:18... he summerizes that it could be a sensor for test alone.