McLaren MCL36

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Mchamilton
Mchamilton
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Joined: 26 Feb 2011, 17:16

Re: McLaren MCL36

Post

SmallSoldier wrote:
20 Feb 2022, 03:39
It’s striking how far forward the new sidepod inlets are compared to the MCL35M (and previous cars), you can tell comparing with the base of the halo, with how much forward the sidepods are, you have to assume that radiators and other ancillaries have been moved towards the new space created with the forward sidepods, which should have had an impact not only on the volume required at the back (making it slimmer), but also moving the COG forward more towards the center of the car… It also shows how much space has been gained from moving from Pull Rod to Push Rod in the rear based on the position of the rod itself in the previous cars:

https://i.imgur.com/67QmU81.jpg
All teams have had to move their COG forward because the centre of pressure from the floor is now much further forward. Also to simply accomodate the high tunnels.

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Stu
Moderator
Joined: 02 Nov 2019, 10:05
Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: McLaren MCL36

Post

Mchamilton wrote:
20 Feb 2022, 10:50
SmallSoldier wrote:
20 Feb 2022, 03:39
It’s striking how far forward the new sidepod inlets are compared to the MCL35M (and previous cars), you can tell comparing with the base of the halo, with how much forward the sidepods are, you have to assume that radiators and other ancillaries have been moved towards the new space created with the forward sidepods, which should have had an impact not only on the volume required at the back (making it slimmer), but also moving the COG forward more towards the center of the car… It also shows how much space has been gained from moving from Pull Rod to Push Rod in the rear based on the position of the rod itself in the previous cars:

https://i.imgur.com/67QmU81.jpg
All teams have had to move their COG forward because the centre of pressure from the floor is now much further forward. Also to simply accomodate the high tunnels.
Weight distribution is still tightly controlled within the regulations (although there is a slight change in what is permissible).

Edit: Cut & paste from regulations.

4.2 Mass distribution
With the car resting on a horizontal plane the mass measured at the front and rear axles must not be less than the mass specified in Article 4.1 factored by 0.440 and 0.540 respectively at all times during the qualifying practice session. Rounding will be to nearest 0.5kg.
If, when required for checking, a car is not already fitted with dry-weather tyres, its mass will be determined using a set of dry-weather tyres selected by the FIA technical delegate.
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

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Blackout
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Joined: 09 Feb 2010, 04:12

Re: McLaren MCL36

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Stu wrote:
20 Feb 2022, 11:26
Mchamilton wrote:
20 Feb 2022, 10:50
SmallSoldier wrote:
20 Feb 2022, 03:39
It’s striking how far forward the new sidepod inlets are compared to the MCL35M (and previous cars), you can tell comparing with the base of the halo, with how much forward the sidepods are, you have to assume that radiators and other ancillaries have been moved towards the new space created with the forward sidepods, which should have had an impact not only on the volume required at the back (making it slimmer), but also moving the COG forward more towards the center of the car… It also shows how much space has been gained from moving from Pull Rod to Push Rod in the rear based on the position of the rod itself in the previous cars:

https://i.imgur.com/67QmU81.jpg
All teams have had to move their COG forward because the centre of pressure from the floor is now much further forward. Also to simply accomodate the high tunnels.
Weight distribution is still controlled within the regulations (although there is a slight change in what is permissible).
And it's more rearward than 2021... :-k
Last edited by Blackout on 20 Feb 2022, 11:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Tim.Wright
330
Joined: 13 Feb 2009, 06:29

Re: McLaren MCL36

Post

SmallSoldier wrote:
20 Feb 2022, 10:29

I’m sure the team is taken that into consideration and trying to bring the best possible balance… I don’t think that moving COG forward would hamper the car’s acceleration, that’s more related to weight transfer and mechanical grip than where the weight resides passively
Unless you are lifting the front wheels off the ground during a launch, there is always an advantage to moving the CG rearwards on a RWD car.

Wheel load = static weight load + load transfer.

Load transfer is relatively small given the low CG height and long wheelbase.
Not the engineer at Force India

CjC
CjC
11
Joined: 03 Jul 2012, 20:13

Re: McLaren MCL36

Post

SmallSoldier wrote:
20 Feb 2022, 10:29
CjC wrote:
20 Feb 2022, 10:23
SmallSoldier wrote:
20 Feb 2022, 03:39
It’s striking how far forward the new sidepod inlets are compared to the MCL35M (and previous cars), you can tell comparing with the base of the halo, with how much forward the sidepods are, you have to assume that radiators and other ancillaries have been moved towards the new space created with the forward sidepods, which should have had an impact not only on the volume required at the back (making it slimmer), but also moving the COG forward more towards the center of the car… It also shows how much space has been gained from moving from Pull Rod to Push Rod in the rear based on the position of the rod itself in the previous cars:

https://i.imgur.com/67QmU81.jpg
Interesting.
If your theory is correct moving the COG forward could harm the exceptional launches Mclaren sort of became renowned for last season and also the good traction characteristic.
However it could improve front rotation for the slow corners which have been an Achilles heel for Mclaren over the last few seasons?
I’m sure the team is taken that into consideration and trying to bring the best possible balance… I don’t think that moving COG forward would hamper the car’s acceleration, that’s more related to weight transfer and mechanical grip than where the weight resides passively
Then again the fact that they have swapped the pull/push rods front and back will alter any advantage or disadvantage they used have.
Think I’m just going to forget any characteristics from the previous seasons and just wait till mid season before making any more
Just a fan's point of view

the EDGE
the EDGE
67
Joined: 13 Feb 2012, 18:31
Location: Bedfordshire ENGLAND

Re: McLaren MCL36

Post

Mchamilton wrote:
20 Feb 2022, 10:50
SmallSoldier wrote:
20 Feb 2022, 03:39
It’s striking how far forward the new sidepod inlets are compared to the MCL35M (and previous cars), you can tell comparing with the base of the halo, with how much forward the sidepods are, you have to assume that radiators and other ancillaries have been moved towards the new space created with the forward sidepods, which should have had an impact not only on the volume required at the back (making it slimmer), but also moving the COG forward more towards the center of the car… It also shows how much space has been gained from moving from Pull Rod to Push Rod in the rear based on the position of the rod itself in the previous cars:

https://i.imgur.com/67QmU81.jpg
All teams have had to move their COG forward because the centre of pressure from the floor is now much further forward. Also to simply accomodate the high tunnels.
The only reason they were ever that far back was to make room for the barge boards following the front wing simplification change a few years ago

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nevill3
16
Joined: 11 Feb 2014, 21:31
Location: Monaco

Re: McLaren MCL36

Post

Stu wrote:
20 Feb 2022, 11:26
Mchamilton wrote:
20 Feb 2022, 10:50
SmallSoldier wrote:
20 Feb 2022, 03:39
It’s striking how far forward the new sidepod inlets are compared to the MCL35M (and previous cars), you can tell comparing with the base of the halo, with how much forward the sidepods are, you have to assume that radiators and other ancillaries have been moved towards the new space created with the forward sidepods, which should have had an impact not only on the volume required at the back (making it slimmer), but also moving the COG forward more towards the center of the car… It also shows how much space has been gained from moving from Pull Rod to Push Rod in the rear based on the position of the rod itself in the previous cars:

https://i.imgur.com/67QmU81.jpg
All teams have had to move their COG forward because the centre of pressure from the floor is now much further forward. Also to simply accomodate the high tunnels.
Weight distribution is still tightly controlled within the regulations (although there is a slight change in what is permissible).

Edit: Cut & paste from regulations.

4.2 Mass distribution
With the car resting on a horizontal plane the mass measured at the front and rear axles must not be less than the mass specified in Article 4.1 factored by 0.440 and 0.540 respectively at all times during the qualifying practice session. Rounding will be to nearest 0.5kg.
If, when required for checking, a car is not already fitted with dry-weather tyres, its mass will be determined using a set of dry-weather tyres selected by the FIA technical delegate.
That cut and past is slightly wrong this years updated regulations have an increase to the front but not the rear weight distribution
ARTICLE 4: MASS
4.1 Minimum mass
The mass of the car, without fuel, must not be less than 775Kg 790Kg at all times during the
Competition.
If, when required for checking, a car is not already fitted with dry-weather tyres, its mass will
be determined using a set of dry-weather tyres selected by the FIA technical delegate.
4.2 Mass distribution
With the car resting on a horizontal plane the mass measured at the front and rear axles must
not be less than the mass specified in Article 4.1 factored by 0.440 0.445 and 0.540
respectively
at all times during the qualifying practice session. Rounding will be to nearest
0.5kg.
If, when required for checking, a car is not already fitted with dry-weather tyres, its mass will
be determined using a set of dry-weather tyres selected by the FIA technical delegate.
Sent from my Commodore PET in 1978

Mchamilton
Mchamilton
24
Joined: 26 Feb 2011, 17:16

Re: McLaren MCL36

Post

Blackout wrote:
20 Feb 2022, 11:29
Stu wrote:
20 Feb 2022, 11:26
Mchamilton wrote:
20 Feb 2022, 10:50


All teams have had to move their COG forward because the centre of pressure from the floor is now much further forward. Also to simply accomodate the high tunnels.
Weight distribution is still controlled within the regulations (although there is a slight change in what is permissible).
And it's more rearward than 2021... :-k
So it is, 5% further rearward, suprised by that tbh

Fer.Fan
Fer.Fan
0
Joined: 02 Mar 2015, 21:31

Re: McLaren MCL36

Post

Mchamilton wrote:
20 Feb 2022, 10:50
SmallSoldier wrote:
20 Feb 2022, 03:39
It’s striking how far forward the new sidepod inlets are compared to the MCL35M (and previous cars), you can tell comparing with the base of the halo, with how much forward the sidepods are, you have to assume that radiators and other ancillaries have been moved towards the new space created with the forward sidepods, which should have had an impact not only on the volume required at the back (making it slimmer), but also moving the COG forward more towards the center of the car… It also shows how much space has been gained from moving from Pull Rod to Push Rod in the rear based on the position of the rod itself in the previous cars:

https://i.imgur.com/67QmU81.jpg
All teams have had to move their COG forward because the centre of pressure from the floor is now much further forward. Also to simply accomodate the high tunnels.
Not all teams have moved their COG forward. Just look att new W13, compare how far back their sidepods sits compared to mcl36 or ferrari. It is strange…

SmallSoldier
SmallSoldier
479
Joined: 10 Mar 2019, 03:54

Re: McLaren MCL36

Post

Tim.Wright wrote:
20 Feb 2022, 11:32
SmallSoldier wrote:
20 Feb 2022, 10:29

I’m sure the team is taken that into consideration and trying to bring the best possible balance… I don’t think that moving COG forward would hamper the car’s acceleration, that’s more related to weight transfer and mechanical grip than where the weight resides passively
Unless you are lifting the front wheels off the ground during a launch, there is always an advantage to moving the CG rearwards on a RWD car.

Wheel load = static weight load + load transfer.

Load transfer is relatively small given the low CG height and long wheelbase.
Thank you, but even if you aren’t lifting the tires from the ground, wouldn’t the rear biased CG induce understeer?

I thought weight transfer (and therefore suspension setup) had a bigger influence, but I’m sure I’m wrong

SmallSoldier
SmallSoldier
479
Joined: 10 Mar 2019, 03:54

Re: McLaren MCL36

Post

Fer.Fan wrote:
20 Feb 2022, 14:57
Mchamilton wrote:
20 Feb 2022, 10:50
SmallSoldier wrote:
20 Feb 2022, 03:39
It’s striking how far forward the new sidepod inlets are compared to the MCL35M (and previous cars), you can tell comparing with the base of the halo, with how much forward the sidepods are, you have to assume that radiators and other ancillaries have been moved towards the new space created with the forward sidepods, which should have had an impact not only on the volume required at the back (making it slimmer), but also moving the COG forward more towards the center of the car… It also shows how much space has been gained from moving from Pull Rod to Push Rod in the rear based on the position of the rod itself in the previous cars:

https://i.imgur.com/67QmU81.jpg
All teams have had to move their COG forward because the centre of pressure from the floor is now much further forward. Also to simply accomodate the high tunnels.
Not all teams have moved their COG forward. Just look att new W13, compare how far back their sidepods sits compared to mcl36 or ferrari. It is strange…
They seem to be forward in the actual car, the render is the one that has them back (as per previous cars)

SmallSoldier
SmallSoldier
479
Joined: 10 Mar 2019, 03:54

Re: McLaren MCL36

Post

CjC wrote:
20 Feb 2022, 11:40
SmallSoldier wrote:
20 Feb 2022, 10:29
CjC wrote:
20 Feb 2022, 10:23


Interesting.
If your theory is correct moving the COG forward could harm the exceptional launches Mclaren sort of became renowned for last season and also the good traction characteristic.
However it could improve front rotation for the slow corners which have been an Achilles heel for Mclaren over the last few seasons?
I’m sure the team is taken that into consideration and trying to bring the best possible balance… I don’t think that moving COG forward would hamper the car’s acceleration, that’s more related to weight transfer and mechanical grip than where the weight resides passively
Then again the fact that they have swapped the pull/push rods front and back will alter any advantage or disadvantage they used have.
Think I’m just going to forget any characteristics from the previous seasons and just wait till mid season before making any more
I’m taking the same advice… It’s fun to speculate, but it’s better to actually see them on track

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Tim.Wright
330
Joined: 13 Feb 2009, 06:29

Re: McLaren MCL36

Post

SmallSoldier wrote:
20 Feb 2022, 19:09

Thank you, but even if you aren’t lifting the tires from the ground, wouldn’t the rear biased CG induce understeer?

I thought weight transfer (and therefore suspension setup) had a bigger influence, but I’m sure I’m wrong
Load transfer accounts for only around 10-15% of the load of the rear (driven) wheels. Most of the load is from the static weight load.

Shifting weight rearwards will typically induce a reduction in transient stability and a loss of understeer.
Not the engineer at Force India

SmallSoldier
SmallSoldier
479
Joined: 10 Mar 2019, 03:54

Re: McLaren MCL36

Post

Tim.Wright wrote:
20 Feb 2022, 19:33
SmallSoldier wrote:
20 Feb 2022, 19:09

Thank you, but even if you aren’t lifting the tires from the ground, wouldn’t the rear biased CG induce understeer?

I thought weight transfer (and therefore suspension setup) had a bigger influence, but I’m sure I’m wrong
Load transfer accounts for only around 10-15% of the load of the rear (driven) wheels. Most of the load is from the static weight load.

Shifting weight rearwards will typically induce a reduction in transient stability and a loss of understeer.
Could you elaborate a bit more please? Trying to figure it out since in my mind it always worked the other way, wouldn’t transferring weight rearwards induce understeer by making the front lighter (therefore reducing grip)… Trying to understand/learn the concept.

Thanks!

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Stu
Moderator
Joined: 02 Nov 2019, 10:05
Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: McLaren MCL36

Post

SmallSoldier wrote:
20 Feb 2022, 19:53
Tim.Wright wrote:
20 Feb 2022, 19:33
SmallSoldier wrote:
20 Feb 2022, 19:09

Thank you, but even if you aren’t lifting the tires from the ground, wouldn’t the rear biased CG induce understeer?

I thought weight transfer (and therefore suspension setup) had a bigger influence, but I’m sure I’m wrong
Load transfer accounts for only around 10-15% of the load of the rear (driven) wheels. Most of the load is from the static weight load.

Shifting weight rearwards will typically induce a reduction in transient stability and a loss of understeer.
Could you elaborate a bit more please? Trying to figure it out since in my mind it always worked the other way, wouldn’t transferring weight rearwards induce understeer by making the front lighter (therefore reducing grip)… Trying to understand/learn the concept.

Thanks!
Aero loading makes it difficult to determine, the championship winning Renaults (during the Alonso years) had a pronounced rear weight bias, they seemed to work okay.
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.