2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

[jumpingfish]

Replying to Ringo.
stressing the fact that removing Masi will not make SC or VSC any less of a gamble, and his "perception" of it mostly benefiting RBR is incorrect.

Agreed. Furthermore: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7c1KnMBFOU

A red flag, now that would have been against the rules. But then Hamilton probably would've won and the world wouldn't have rejoiced.

Herbie Blash said he would have thrown a red flag if he were in Masi's position, (if it was required to have a sprint to the end).

I would like to see the final 1-2 lap sprint in Abu Dhabi when the contenders for the title have the same number of points and the same tyres. Who would push whom into the wall and who would have to be punished for it? Did Herbie say anything about that?

[Jolle]

If you want a conspiracy theory....
- Ex-Ferrari people in key positions at FIA and Liberty
- Liberty helped Alonso return in F1 because they were to dependent of Hamilton (when it looked like before the 2020 season there was a chance both Vettel and Hamilton could walk), without a champion on the grid, F1 is worth less
- Current RedBull sim racer part of the stewards during controversial decisions in favour of RedBull
- sealed Ferrari document, teams "bribed" to not follow legal actions with a better Concorde deal.
- Todt made an official statement that criticism on the race director and the last race were misplaced.

It looks a bit like Liberty and the FIA were doing everything within their power to break Mercedes/Hamilton victory streak and protect their rivals. Could it be they overstepped that boundary?

[mrluke]

If your are going to make such a claim, then you need to back it up with some hard proof.

As far as I can tell from the rules, A red flag is the only legal way Masi could have ensured the race didn't end under a safety car, and I'm more well versed on the sporting regulations than most people.

Happy to be corrected but I think the issue with the red flag is that if 75% of the race distance has been completed then it doesn't restart.

There were 3 available options

1. Red flag and finish the race
2. Let all the cars unlap and finish under safety car
3. Dont let anybody unlap and resume with 1 lap to go.

None of those happened, Masi made up something else and thats why its controversial. Any of the other options would have been complained about but none would have seen RD being removed and the we would have all moved on.

75% only applies to points being awarded. If the leader has covered 75% of the race distance full points will be awarded.

The only thing thats prevents a race from being restarted, is a safety issue, like the track conditions are unsafe, or the time limit has been reached.

see article 5.4, it covers all the time constraints related to the race.
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... -11-11.pdf

Basically the race can restart as long as there hasn't been over 2 hours of racing, or over 3 hrs of racings & stoppages.

You are spot on.

Red flag would have given the best race resumption without a doubt. Standing start for 1 or 2 laps with fresh tyres on for the championship....now that would have been a good ending.

[jumpingfish]

If you want a conspiracy theory....
- Ex-Ferrari people in key positions at FIA and Liberty
- Liberty helped Alonso return in F1 because they were to dependent of Hamilton (when it looked like before the 2020 season there was a chance both Vettel and Hamilton could walk), without a champion on the grid, F1 is worth less
- Current RedBull sim racer part of the stewards during controversial decisions in favour of RedBull
- sealed Ferrari document, teams "bribed" to not follow legal actions with a better Concorde deal.
- Todt made an official statement that criticism on the race director and the last race were misplaced.

It looks a bit like Liberty and the FIA were doing everything within their power to break Mercedes/Hamilton victory streak and protect their rivals. Could it be they overstepped that boundary?

Where is Kimi in that theory?

[Jolle]

If you want a conspiracy theory....
- Ex-Ferrari people in key positions at FIA and Liberty
- Liberty helped Alonso return in F1 because they were to dependent of Hamilton (when it looked like before the 2020 season there was a chance both Vettel and Hamilton could walk), without a champion on the grid, F1 is worth less
- Current RedBull sim racer part of the stewards during controversial decisions in favour of RedBull
- sealed Ferrari document, teams "bribed" to not follow legal actions with a better Concorde deal.
- Todt made an official statement that criticism on the race director and the last race were misplaced.

It looks a bit like Liberty and the FIA were doing everything within their power to break Mercedes/Hamilton victory streak and protect their rivals. Could it be they overstepped that boundary?

Where is Kimi in that theory?

that's the only one that isn't a theory,
https://www.grandprix.com/news/liberty- ... brown.html
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/59558/-l ... lary-.html

as for Kimi, he was already all the way at the midfield/back with Sauber, not in a position to carry F1 like someone like Alonso, Hamilton or Vettel.

[nzjrs]

If you want a conspiracy theory....
- Ex-Ferrari people in key positions at FIA and Liberty
- Liberty helped Alonso return in F1 because they were to dependent of Hamilton (when it looked like before the 2020 season there was a chance both Vettel and Hamilton could walk), without a champion on the grid, F1 is worth less
- Current RedBull sim racer part of the stewards during controversial decisions in favour of RedBull
- sealed Ferrari document, teams "bribed" to not follow legal actions with a better Concorde deal.
- Todt made an official statement that criticism on the race director and the last race were misplaced.

It looks a bit like Liberty and the FIA were doing everything within their power to break Mercedes/Hamilton victory streak and protect their rivals. Could it be they overstepped that boundary?

How does one disprove a conspiracy theory? Asking for a friend...

These things are not disprovable, which is the fun for the believer and for the person who laughs at the believers.

Mod edit.

[Oleo]

Verstappen was 10 seconds ahead of Bottas in Brasil when he lost first place, a lead that had increased in the previous laps, despite having to defend his position. Verstappen then drove the car home after being overtaken. Had he been given a penalty, he would not have let his lead reduce to 3 seconds. Never mind the fact that any penalty would have been avoided anyway by an instruction to give the place back, as is common practice in such situations.

Max didnt have the pace to stay with Lewis , thats a fact. He was getting slower lap by lap after Lewis passed, it was more likely tyre deg. Plus Bottas actually increased his pace towards the end. He also had newer tyres than Max. I thought a driver with Max's attitude would have kept pushing to try and force a mistake and not simply give up and drop off. But maybe he did.

That Mercedes car was ridiculous fast all weekend, way faster than even their second car, engine or whatever it was, I am quite sure Verstappen was aware he would not be able to pass Hamilton after losing position.
Ok fact checking time:
Newer tyres? At the pass it was 18 laps old vs 17 laps old. Technically those tyres were newer, realistically they were equal age, although defending vs Hamilton will have of course cost some tyrelife.
Bottas increased his pace? No he actually lost pace as his tyres got older after the pass/lap 59.
1m12 highs or 1m13 lows before lap 59.
2 more 1m12 highs followed by a bunch of mid/high 1m13's after lap 59:
https://en.mclarenf-1.com/2021/gp/s8138 ... s/821-801/
The link also shows Verstappen backing off the final ± 8 laps, when he sees he wont be able to get pos 1 back.

[jumpingfish]

If you want a conspiracy theory....
- Ex-Ferrari people in key positions at FIA and Liberty
- Liberty helped Alonso return in F1 because they were to dependent of Hamilton (when it looked like before the 2020 season there was a chance both Vettel and Hamilton could walk), without a champion on the grid, F1 is worth less
- Current RedBull sim racer part of the stewards during controversial decisions in favour of RedBull
- sealed Ferrari document, teams "bribed" to not follow legal actions with a better Concorde deal.
- Todt made an official statement that criticism on the race director and the last race were misplaced.

It looks a bit like Liberty and the FIA were doing everything within their power to break Mercedes/Hamilton victory streak and protect their rivals. Could it be they overstepped that boundary?

Where is Kimi in that theory?

that's the only one that isn't a theory,
https://www.grandprix.com/news/liberty- ... brown.html
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/59558/-l ... lary-.html

as for Kimi, he was already all the way at the midfield/back with Sauber, not in a position to carry F1 like someone like Alonso, Hamilton or Vettel.

BTW Vettel had contract till the end of 2020, why could he leave before that season started? Also Sakhir 2020 grand-prix, when Hamilton was absent, was so cool with Mercedes tyres drama and different drivers on podiums instead of boring HAMVERBOT. Nobody cried when Lewis wasn't there. Same would be if he retired.

[Jolle]

If you want a conspiracy theory....
- Ex-Ferrari people in key positions at FIA and Liberty
- Liberty helped Alonso return in F1 because they were to dependent of Hamilton (when it looked like before the 2020 season there was a chance both Vettel and Hamilton could walk), without a champion on the grid, F1 is worth less
- Current RedBull sim racer part of the stewards during controversial decisions in favour of RedBull
- sealed Ferrari document, teams "bribed" to not follow legal actions with a better Concorde deal.
- Todt made an official statement that criticism on the race director and the last race were misplaced.

It looks a bit like Liberty and the FIA were doing everything within their power to break Mercedes/Hamilton victory streak and protect their rivals. Could it be they overstepped that boundary?

How does one disprove a conspiracy theory? Asking for a friend (PZ).

These things are not disprovable, which is the fun for the believer and for the person who laughs at the believers.

that's why I said if.

a good conspiracy theory has half a fact and then twists it to something new. Most of the time to divert from the same offence you conspire (or your hero's). For years now Toto Wolff is been accused that he had a big finger in the 2014 engine regs for Mercedes, while he was at Williams Renault when they set the rules for instance.
Most things on this short list aren't even theories but facts.

Ferrari personel at FIA/Formula one group: Todt, Brawn, Tombazis, Domenicali
Current RedBull sim racer: Liuzzi, who also stated in several press outlets that Verstappen earns the title
There is a sealed Ferrari document and the teams weighed in to go to court over it

You can take the facts and draw some conclusions. For instance, the Ferrari deal is pretty obvious, Ferrari is such an asset that a "lance Armstrong engine offence" would damage F1 considerable, so... with some force, swipe it under the rug.

For stewarding, on this forum there is quite some buzz that I think Donneley is very pro Hamilton? compare that to Liuzzi, payed by RedBull and openly defending Vertappen's actions on track. Is that then a conspiracy theory? or more a why do they ask him?

Oh well... I think Ben Sulayem is cleaning ship as we speak.

[Jolle]

Where is Kimi in that theory?

that's the only one that isn't a theory,
https://www.grandprix.com/news/liberty- ... brown.html
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/59558/-l ... lary-.html

as for Kimi, he was already all the way at the midfield/back with Sauber, not in a position to carry F1 like someone like Alonso, Hamilton or Vettel.

BTW Vettel had contract till the end of 2020, why could he leave before that season started? Also Sakhir 2020 grand-prix, when Hamilton was absent, was so cool with Mercedes tyres drama and different drivers on podiums instead of boring HAMVERBOT. Nobody cried when Lewis wasn't there. Same would be if he retired.

During the 2020 season, after the announcement of Vettel's departure at Ferrari, it was unclear if he would stay in F1 or retire. Hamilton's contract was ending and took ages to sign (all the way to testing)

Yes it was an exciting GP, but that isn't the problem. Formula ford is exciting, but not bringing in billions. F1 is more than track action, its money, it's big stars, its world champions, its jets, it's Monaco. Commercially a F1 champion is worth more than someone who came in second or third. Someone that beats the world champion is commercial worth more than someone that became the new champion by default. If Hamilton retired after 2020 we had Verstappen as world champion, defeating Bottas. Now it's Verstappen who clinched the title in a duel with seven time world champion and the all time great Sir Lewis Hamilton.

[dans79]

Oh well... I think Ben Sulayem is cleaning ship as we speak.

And if he does a good job, and we go back to the pre 2019 "let them race" mentality (what I prefer), Max will need to alter his racing style significantly.

[jumpingfish]

that's the only one that isn't a theory,
https://www.grandprix.com/news/liberty- ... brown.html
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/59558/-l ... lary-.html

as for Kimi, he was already all the way at the midfield/back with Sauber, not in a position to carry F1 like someone like Alonso, Hamilton or Vettel.

BTW Vettel had contract till the end of 2020, why could he leave before that season started? Also Sakhir 2020 grand-prix, when Hamilton was absent, was so cool with Mercedes tyres drama and different drivers on podiums instead of boring HAMVERBOT. Nobody cried when Lewis wasn't there. Same would be if he retired.

During the 2020 season, after the announcement of Vettel's departure at Ferrari, it was unclear if he would stay in F1 or retire. Hamilton's contract was ending and took ages to sign (all the way to testing)

Yes it was an exciting GP, but that isn't the problem. Formula ford is exciting, but not bringing in billions. F1 is more than track action, its money, it's big stars, its world champions, its jets, it's Monaco. Commercially a F1 champion is worth more than someone who came in second or third. Someone that beats the world champion is commercial worth more than someone that became the new champion by default. If Hamilton retired after 2020 we had Verstappen as world champion, defeating Bottas. Now it's Verstappen who clinched the title in a duel with seven time world champion and the all time great Sir Lewis Hamilton.

Perhaps no one will like my version, but I think that in F1 there should not be a driver's championship at the same time as the constructors' standings. Or is it the constructors' championship, where engineering geniuses fight for the right to be considered the best team, where the driver only brings the car to the finish line as part of this team, celebrating the success of the designers. Or, if we want to identify the GOAT, the best of all time and other pathos regalia, they should drive the same cars, it doesn’t matter if it’s Schumacher, Senna or Hamilton etc. For me it's not a sport where two people have an advantage over the rest of the racers in the form of a faster car, so the other 18 have to just drive in circles for the sake of advertising on their cars. Yes, it was no coincidence that these two got behind the wheel of a faster car, they were not randomly taken from the street, but if we consider this situation more broadly, how appropriate is it to identify a champion driver in different cars?

Maybe we will send 140сm dwarfs to the boxing ring against Mike Tyson in his prime or the same dwarfs against NBA players? And after the victory of Tyson or basketball players, we will call them the greatest, the best in the universe. Why not, if in F1 they don't drive under equal conditions and become champions?

And F1 hasn't been a sport for a very long time, but only show and a multi-billion dollar business selling advertising on cars, walls, paying for TV broadcasts, oil sponsors and all that stuff. Assuming there were no spectators, any team or car manufacturer would not spend a single dollar on F1, so everything is done for the spectator, for the entertainment. Including slowing down a faster car.

[PlatinumZealot]

Agreed. Furthermore: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7c1KnMBFOU

A red flag, now that would have been against the rules. But then Hamilton probably would've won and the world wouldn't have rejoiced.

Herbie Blash said he would have thrown a red flag if he were in Masi's position, (if it was required to have a sprint to the end).

I would like to see the final 1-2 lap sprint in Abu Dhabi when the contenders for the title have the same number of points and the same tyres. Who would push whom into the wall and who would have to be punished for it? Did Herbie say anything about that?

He would have thrown it right after Latiffi's crash so it would be a five lap sprint almost like what have seen in SC prone races like Monaco and Baku.

The drivers were warned before the race that running others off-track would be harshly punished. I don't think Max would have gone much more aggressive than what he did on lap 1, after that opening lap it would be about playing games with DRS. I think the Mercedes would have engaged their rocket mode though.

[PlatinumZealot]

And F1 hasn't been a sport for a very long time, but only show and a multi-billion dollar business selling advertising on cars, walls, paying for TV broadcasts, oil sponsors and all that stuff. Assuming there were no spectators, any team or car manufacturer would not spend a single dollar on F1, so everything is done for the spectator, for the entertainment. Including slowing down a faster car.

It can be debated if it was ever a sport. Maybe in the sense that the drivers are given equipment and they must use their skills to maximize that equipment. Fortunately we can measure this to some degree.

Yeah, we have some element of entertainment, but what happens on the field of play should be kept from being artificial. Set the rules and let the drivers have at it. I remember the count-down qualifying, it was an awful rule but it was actually not artificial come to think of it. The sprints are another set of rules done for entertainment that I don't like that much, but it still pure in a sense. If F1 wants to do things like this for entertainment I am OK with that. Just don't manipulate the field of play like Blue-shells and Storm clouds and I'm good.

[ringo]

Happy to be corrected but I think the issue with the red flag is that if 75% of the race distance has been completed then it doesn't restart.

There were 3 available options

1. Red flag and finish the race
2. Let all the cars unlap and finish under safety car
3. Dont let anybody unlap and resume with 1 lap to go.

None of those happened, Masi made up something else and thats why its controversial. Any of the other options would have been complained about but none would have seen RD being removed and the we would have all moved on.

75% only applies to points being awarded. If the leader has covered 75% of the race distance full points will be awarded.

The only thing thats prevents a race from being restarted, is a safety issue, like the track conditions are unsafe, or the time limit has been reached.

see article 5.4, it covers all the time constraints related to the race.
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... -11-11.pdf

Basically the race can restart as long as there hasn't been over 2 hours of racing, or over 3 hrs of racings & stoppages.

You are spot on.

Red flag would have given the best race resumption without a doubt. Standing start for 1 or 2 laps with fresh tyres on for the championship....now that would have been a good ending.

Yes but Hamilton was the dominant driver on the day so that wouldnt give Max a certain win. It was already shown that Lewis was faster even on the slower medium tyre. So a fair fight after a red flag would still see Hamilton outpace Max if they had 5? laps to go after Latifi's crash.
"El Plan" was that Max was on new softs and needed to be right behind lewis. Masi made the "motor race" a reality.