2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

[BrunoH]

i guess the only thing is to check in the straight to see if here is any separation or how much its performing. but i doubt they have done it, most likely photo paralax

[mwillems]

According to Autosport, all teams suffer on the straight.

[FittingMechanics]

Palmer: "I'm impressed by McLaren and Ferrari. AlphaTauri could be good but they are flying under the radar somewhat."

[BosF1]

I don't want to jump conclusions, but man, I would appreciate a good ol' McLaren vs. Ferrari championship fight.

Daydreaming is a beautiful thing

[mwillems]

Just a Mclaren vs anybody else would do me

[runningmanz]

Hard not to get excited about how well we are doing so far. Last season we were not this quick early on testing yet were quite decent last year particularly with Lando in the first half. We also squandered alot more points than Ferrari too in that second half. So if following similar testing plans there is reason to be positive.

I agree with Djos too, Dan was mentioned a few times by the team has having significant input into this cars design. It makes sense too given how many different cars he has driven particularly the strong RBR. Key mentioned they hoped this input would assist creating a much more consistent handling car.


"The Australian, who finished 45 points off team mate Lando Norris in last season’s drivers’ championship, spoke at the McLaren MCL36 launch and explained that he'd had a considerable input into the development of the 2022 car. He explained that he had used his experience at Renault and Red Bull to shape the Woking squad's process."

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... mcpZ3.html

[SmallSoldier]

From what I’ve heard over the years, the aero and suspension is developed together as they have such a big impact on each other.

Plus the FIA kept changing the spec so there wouldn’t be much to gain by working on one aspect of the car in isolation.

Well, I’m not the one saying it… It was James Key who said that for the MCL36 the suspension was worked first and the aero has followed that philosophy, since they couldn’t work on aero in 2020, they focused on the suspension during that year (and or course packaging and mechanical parts).

[runningmanz]

From what I’ve heard over the years, the aero and suspension is developed together as they have such a big impact on each other.

Plus the FIA kept changing the spec so there wouldn’t be much to gain by working on one aspect of the car in isolation.

Well, I’m not the one saying it… It was James Key who said that for the MCL36 the suspension was worked first and the aero has followed that philosophy, since they couldn’t work on aero in 2020, they focused on the suspension during that year (and or course packaging and mechanical parts).

Key also mentioned they had different paths developed in parallel ready for the start of 2021 so it certainly wasn't one fixed design path locked in. Add to that what he, the team and Dan stated about his significant input and things definitely have changed alot and towards a car that combines that input taken from cars like the RBR. This helps give a different design philosophy away from the quirky handling McLaren one of previous years, which Key stated the wanted to get away from now to get a more consistent handling car.

[SmallSoldier]

From what I’ve heard over the years, the aero and suspension is developed together as they have such a big impact on each other.

Plus the FIA kept changing the spec so there wouldn’t be much to gain by working on one aspect of the car in isolation.

Well, I’m not the one saying it… It was James Key who said that for the MCL36 the suspension was worked first and the aero has followed that philosophy, since they couldn’t work on aero in 2020, they focused on the suspension during that year (and or course packaging and mechanical parts).

Key also mentioned they had different paths developed in parallel ready for the start of 2021 so it certainly wasn't one fixed design path locked in. Add to that what he, the team and Dan stated about his significant input and things definitely have changed alot and towards a car that combines that input taken from cars like the RBR. This helps give a different design philosophy away from the quirky handling McLaren one of previous years, which Key stated the wanted to get away from now to get a more consistent handling car.

My only point is that the team will follow whatever path makes the car the fastest possible, if that path suits Daniel’s style more, fantastic, if it doesn’t, so be it… The drivers always provide feedback, the fact that Carlos said that it was “weird” means that the handling characteristics of the MCL35M were known way before Daniel came on board and I’m sure both Carlos and Lando provided similar feedback back then, the difference is that both of them manage to drive around the issue.

If some want to think that Daniel is responsible for the MCL36 performance, is up to them… Just as I won’t blame him if the performance isn’t there, I won’t praise him if the car’s performance is great… He is supposed to drive the car as fast as the car can go… He is not an engineer, he isn’t a designer, as much what he can do is to tell them that it feels that the car does X, when he is doing A and does Y when he is doing B and how he would like those variables to feel, the team will try to make adjustments to make the car be as close as possible to what he wants, but it’s possible that it won’t be the case (like the 2021 season showed).

[billamend]

My only point is that the team will follow whatever path makes the car the fastest possible, if that path suits Daniel’s style more, fantastic, if it doesn’t, so be it…

Exactly.

Reminds of the people saying that RB develops the car to Max's style, when he has said multiple times he doesn't like how the RB drives. But he can still be fast on it.

Same for McLaren, Norris has said multiple times that his feedback is exactly the same as Ricciardo and that he doesn't like how the car behaves. But he can be fast in it.

[runningmanz]

Well, I’m not the one saying it… It was James Key who said that for the MCL36 the suspension was worked first and the aero has followed that philosophy, since they couldn’t work on aero in 2020, they focused on the suspension during that year (and or course packaging and mechanical parts).

Key also mentioned they had different paths developed in parallel ready for the start of 2021 so it certainly wasn't one fixed design path locked in. Add to that what he, the team and Dan stated about his significant input and things definitely have changed alot and towards a car that combines that input taken from cars like the RBR. This helps give a different design philosophy away from the quirky handling McLaren one of previous years, which Key stated the wanted to get away from now to get a more consistent handling car.

My only point is that the team will follow whatever path makes the car the fastest possible, if that path suits Daniel’s style more, fantastic, if it doesn’t, so be it… The drivers always provide feedback, the fact that Carlos said that it was “weird” means that the handling characteristics of the MCL35M were known way before Daniel came on board and I’m sure both Carlos and Lando provided similar feedback back then, the difference is that both of them manage to drive around the issue.

If some want to think that Daniel is responsible for the MCL36 performance, is up to them… Just as I won’t blame him if the performance isn’t there, I won’t praise him if the car’s performance is great… He is supposed to drive the car as fast as the car can go… He is not an engineer, he isn’t a designer, as much what he can do is to tell them that it feels that the car does X, when he is doing A and does Y when he is doing B and how he would like those variables to feel, the team will try to make adjustments to make the car be as close as possible to what he wants, but it’s possible that it won’t be the case (like the 2021 season showed).

You're missing the point. Without Dan's input which Lando also agreed with the car wouldn't be what it is now. I'm not saying it's all his input of course not but it is significant. Lando and Carlos didn't have reference points from a race winning car like the RBR that Dan brings to the team. Your are underestimating how important that information and experience is . Mentioning 2021 is a moot point because Dan had very limited input into that car. Time will tell how good the car is and if it's the right design direction.

[SmallSoldier]

Key also mentioned they had different paths developed in parallel ready for the start of 2021 so it certainly wasn't one fixed design path locked in. Add to that what he, the team and Dan stated about his significant input and things definitely have changed alot and towards a car that combines that input taken from cars like the RBR. This helps give a different design philosophy away from the quirky handling McLaren one of previous years, which Key stated the wanted to get away from now to get a more consistent handling car.

My only point is that the team will follow whatever path makes the car the fastest possible, if that path suits Daniel’s style more, fantastic, if it doesn’t, so be it… The drivers always provide feedback, the fact that Carlos said that it was “weird” means that the handling characteristics of the MCL35M were known way before Daniel came on board and I’m sure both Carlos and Lando provided similar feedback back then, the difference is that both of them manage to drive around the issue.

If some want to think that Daniel is responsible for the MCL36 performance, is up to them… Just as I won’t blame him if the performance isn’t there, I won’t praise him if the car’s performance is great… He is supposed to drive the car as fast as the car can go… He is not an engineer, he isn’t a designer, as much what he can do is to tell them that it feels that the car does X, when he is doing A and does Y when he is doing B and how he would like those variables to feel, the team will try to make adjustments to make the car be as close as possible to what he wants, but it’s possible that it won’t be the case (like the 2021 season showed).

You're missing the point. Without Dan's input which Lando also agreed with the car wouldn't be what it is now. I'm not saying it's all his input of course not but it is significant. Lando and Carlos didn't have reference points from a race winning car like the RBR that Dan brings to the team. Your are underestimating how important that information and experience is . Mentioning 2021 is a moot point because Dan had very limited input into that car. Time will tell how good the car is and if it's the right design direction.

We still don’t know if the behavior of the MCL35M is still in the MCL36, all the teams are finding out how the cars are behaving with some even been surprised with porpoising, which apparently is unexpected.

I don’t agree with the whole “Without Dan’s input the car wouldn’t be what it is now”… Like I said before, the drivers give input, the team takes it into “consideration”, but that’s it… They build the fastest car they can build… You are trying to attribute the performance of the car to Dan’s feedback and that is wrong… If the car is fast, it isn’t thanks to Dan and if it is slow it isn’t because of Dan’s feedback.

I will leave it there since clearly we won’t agree.

[Emag]

The driver is the "source of truth" for the engineers. You can rely on the data all you want, but if the driver cannot translate that in the track, then everything is meaningless.

In that regard, a driver's input is very important, because good feedback pushes the development towards concepts that lead to better on-track performance, and the opposite can lead to disaster.

So yeah, you cannot attribute the car's performance entirely on the driver's feedback, but you cannot discredit it as well.

[SmallSoldier]

The driver is the "source of truth" for the engineers. You can rely on the data all you want, but if the driver cannot translate that in the track, then everything is meaningless.

In that regard, a driver's input is very important, because good feedback pushes the development towards concepts that lead to better on-track performance, and the opposite can lead to disaster.

So yeah, you cannot attribute the car's performance entirely on the driver's feedback, but you cannot discredit it as well.

It’s “feedback”… It’s subjective… It’s based on “feeling”…

Last season one driver extracted speed out of the package, the other one didn’t and it was because of “feeling”… It was very telling when Tom Stallard was telling Daniel: “It is fast when it feels slow”.

Engineers design cars, engineers rely on data

I’m not discrediting it, but I won’t overestimate it either… The MCL33 is one of the worst cars McLaren has brought to a track, with feedback from the likes of Alonso and Button, not “7 time race winners”, but World Champions… Was the MCL33 a dog because of their feedback?

[Emag]

The driver is the "source of truth" for the engineers. You can rely on the data all you want, but if the driver cannot translate that in the track, then everything is meaningless.

In that regard, a driver's input is very important, because good feedback pushes the development towards concepts that lead to better on-track performance, and the opposite can lead to disaster.

So yeah, you cannot attribute the car's performance entirely on the driver's feedback, but you cannot discredit it as well.

It’s “feedback”… It’s subjective… It’s based on “feeling”…

Last season one driver extracted speed out of the package, the other one didn’t and it was because of “feeling”… It was very telling when Tom Stallard was telling Daniel: “It is fast when it feels slow”.

Engineers design cars, engineers rely on data

I’m not discrediting it, but I won’t overestimate it either… The MCL33 is one of the worst cars McLaren has brought to a track, with feedback from the likes of Alonso and Button, not “7 time race winners”, but World Champions… Was the MCL33 a dog because of their feedback?

You picked the worst car for this argument, because the MCL33 was always going to suffer from some sort of flaw given how late the decision to switch to Renault was made. Nevertheless, the problem with that car turned out to be a fundamental error in the design, and not bad driver feedback as you suggested.

But because you mentioned one of the past cars. I believe one of the reasons why these last few McLarens, although very decent cars, have suffered from a weak front-end, has to do with Fernando's feedback back in 2015-2017.
Fernando is one of the most adaptable drivers of the recent history, but he had his preferences. And his preferences, unfortunately for McLaren, required bizarre handling characteristics.

You can see this mostly from his onboards with the Renault of 2004-2006, but basically, he liked to forcefully push the car towards understeer on corner entry, wait for it to balance and grip, then shoot away on the exit.

This driving style, which as far as I am aware is unique to him, led to post 2017 cars having a weird front-end trait on them, for which both Carlos and Daniel can vouch. How do I know that this is the case? Because Fernando himself said back in 2017, that he could finally reuse his old style again.

Actual quote taken from this article: https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/ferna ... 7/4997657/

"With the 2017 cars, I'm able to drive back again to my driving style, I feel much more competitive than the previous years, I'm feeling competitive out there on the track."

So, yeah, driver's input is important. It pushed engineers back then to pursue certain handling characteristics that Fernando was asking for, and they were translating on track because he (Fernando) could make them work.

But here comes Carlos and Daniel (and actually Lando has been critical as well), and it turns out that it's not such a good trait to have on your car, unless your driver is Fernando Alonso.