Well, I’m not the one saying it… It was James Key who said that for the MCL36 the suspension was worked first and the aero has followed that philosophy, since they couldn’t work on aero in 2020, they focused on the suspension during that year (and or course packaging and mechanical parts).
Key also mentioned they had different paths developed in parallel ready for the start of 2021 so it certainly wasn't one fixed design path locked in. Add to that what he, the team and Dan stated about his significant input and things definitely have changed alot and towards a car that combines that input taken from cars like the RBR. This helps give a different design philosophy away from the quirky handling McLaren one of previous years, which Key stated the wanted to get away from now to get a more consistent handling car.SmallSoldier wrote: ↑24 Feb 2022, 15:38Well, I’m not the one saying it… It was James Key who said that for the MCL36 the suspension was worked first and the aero has followed that philosophy, since they couldn’t work on aero in 2020, they focused on the suspension during that year (and or course packaging and mechanical parts).
My only point is that the team will follow whatever path makes the car the fastest possible, if that path suits Daniel’s style more, fantastic, if it doesn’t, so be it… The drivers always provide feedback, the fact that Carlos said that it was “weird” means that the handling characteristics of the MCL35M were known way before Daniel came on board and I’m sure both Carlos and Lando provided similar feedback back then, the difference is that both of them manage to drive around the issue.runningmanz wrote: ↑24 Feb 2022, 15:54Key also mentioned they had different paths developed in parallel ready for the start of 2021 so it certainly wasn't one fixed design path locked in. Add to that what he, the team and Dan stated about his significant input and things definitely have changed alot and towards a car that combines that input taken from cars like the RBR. This helps give a different design philosophy away from the quirky handling McLaren one of previous years, which Key stated the wanted to get away from now to get a more consistent handling car.SmallSoldier wrote: ↑24 Feb 2022, 15:38Well, I’m not the one saying it… It was James Key who said that for the MCL36 the suspension was worked first and the aero has followed that philosophy, since they couldn’t work on aero in 2020, they focused on the suspension during that year (and or course packaging and mechanical parts).
Exactly.SmallSoldier wrote: ↑24 Feb 2022, 16:13My only point is that the team will follow whatever path makes the car the fastest possible, if that path suits Daniel’s style more, fantastic, if it doesn’t, so be it…
You're missing the point. Without Dan's input which Lando also agreed with the car wouldn't be what it is now. I'm not saying it's all his input of course not but it is significant. Lando and Carlos didn't have reference points from a race winning car like the RBR that Dan brings to the team. Your are underestimating how important that information and experience is . Mentioning 2021 is a moot point because Dan had very limited input into that car. Time will tell how good the car is and if it's the right design direction.SmallSoldier wrote: ↑24 Feb 2022, 16:13My only point is that the team will follow whatever path makes the car the fastest possible, if that path suits Daniel’s style more, fantastic, if it doesn’t, so be it… The drivers always provide feedback, the fact that Carlos said that it was “weird” means that the handling characteristics of the MCL35M were known way before Daniel came on board and I’m sure both Carlos and Lando provided similar feedback back then, the difference is that both of them manage to drive around the issue.runningmanz wrote: ↑24 Feb 2022, 15:54Key also mentioned they had different paths developed in parallel ready for the start of 2021 so it certainly wasn't one fixed design path locked in. Add to that what he, the team and Dan stated about his significant input and things definitely have changed alot and towards a car that combines that input taken from cars like the RBR. This helps give a different design philosophy away from the quirky handling McLaren one of previous years, which Key stated the wanted to get away from now to get a more consistent handling car.SmallSoldier wrote: ↑24 Feb 2022, 15:38
Well, I’m not the one saying it… It was James Key who said that for the MCL36 the suspension was worked first and the aero has followed that philosophy, since they couldn’t work on aero in 2020, they focused on the suspension during that year (and or course packaging and mechanical parts).
If some want to think that Daniel is responsible for the MCL36 performance, is up to them… Just as I won’t blame him if the performance isn’t there, I won’t praise him if the car’s performance is great… He is supposed to drive the car as fast as the car can go… He is not an engineer, he isn’t a designer, as much what he can do is to tell them that it feels that the car does X, when he is doing A and does Y when he is doing B and how he would like those variables to feel, the team will try to make adjustments to make the car be as close as possible to what he wants, but it’s possible that it won’t be the case (like the 2021 season showed).
We still don’t know if the behavior of the MCL35M is still in the MCL36, all the teams are finding out how the cars are behaving with some even been surprised with porpoising, which apparently is unexpected.runningmanz wrote: ↑24 Feb 2022, 16:33You're missing the point. Without Dan's input which Lando also agreed with the car wouldn't be what it is now. I'm not saying it's all his input of course not but it is significant. Lando and Carlos didn't have reference points from a race winning car like the RBR that Dan brings to the team. Your are underestimating how important that information and experience is . Mentioning 2021 is a moot point because Dan had very limited input into that car. Time will tell how good the car is and if it's the right design direction.SmallSoldier wrote: ↑24 Feb 2022, 16:13My only point is that the team will follow whatever path makes the car the fastest possible, if that path suits Daniel’s style more, fantastic, if it doesn’t, so be it… The drivers always provide feedback, the fact that Carlos said that it was “weird” means that the handling characteristics of the MCL35M were known way before Daniel came on board and I’m sure both Carlos and Lando provided similar feedback back then, the difference is that both of them manage to drive around the issue.runningmanz wrote: ↑24 Feb 2022, 15:54
Key also mentioned they had different paths developed in parallel ready for the start of 2021 so it certainly wasn't one fixed design path locked in. Add to that what he, the team and Dan stated about his significant input and things definitely have changed alot and towards a car that combines that input taken from cars like the RBR. This helps give a different design philosophy away from the quirky handling McLaren one of previous years, which Key stated the wanted to get away from now to get a more consistent handling car.
If some want to think that Daniel is responsible for the MCL36 performance, is up to them… Just as I won’t blame him if the performance isn’t there, I won’t praise him if the car’s performance is great… He is supposed to drive the car as fast as the car can go… He is not an engineer, he isn’t a designer, as much what he can do is to tell them that it feels that the car does X, when he is doing A and does Y when he is doing B and how he would like those variables to feel, the team will try to make adjustments to make the car be as close as possible to what he wants, but it’s possible that it won’t be the case (like the 2021 season showed).
It’s “feedback”… It’s subjective… It’s based on “feeling”…Emag wrote: ↑24 Feb 2022, 16:48The driver is the "source of truth" for the engineers. You can rely on the data all you want, but if the driver cannot translate that in the track, then everything is meaningless.
In that regard, a driver's input is very important, because good feedback pushes the development towards concepts that lead to better on-track performance, and the opposite can lead to disaster.
So yeah, you cannot attribute the car's performance entirely on the driver's feedback, but you cannot discredit it as well.
You picked the worst car for this argument, because the MCL33 was always going to suffer from some sort of flaw given how late the decision to switch to Renault was made. Nevertheless, the problem with that car turned out to be a fundamental error in the design, and not bad driver feedback as you suggested.SmallSoldier wrote: ↑24 Feb 2022, 16:58It’s “feedback”… It’s subjective… It’s based on “feeling”…Emag wrote: ↑24 Feb 2022, 16:48The driver is the "source of truth" for the engineers. You can rely on the data all you want, but if the driver cannot translate that in the track, then everything is meaningless.
In that regard, a driver's input is very important, because good feedback pushes the development towards concepts that lead to better on-track performance, and the opposite can lead to disaster.
So yeah, you cannot attribute the car's performance entirely on the driver's feedback, but you cannot discredit it as well.
Last season one driver extracted speed out of the package, the other one didn’t and it was because of “feeling”… It was very telling when Tom Stallard was telling Daniel: “It is fast when it feels slow”.
Engineers design cars, engineers rely on data
I’m not discrediting it, but I won’t overestimate it either… The MCL33 is one of the worst cars McLaren has brought to a track, with feedback from the likes of Alonso and Button, not “7 time race winners”, but World Champions… Was the MCL33 a dog because of their feedback?
So, yeah, driver's input is important. It pushed engineers back then to pursue certain handling characteristics that Fernando was asking for, and they were translating on track because he (Fernando) could make them work."With the 2017 cars, I'm able to drive back again to my driving style, I feel much more competitive than the previous years, I'm feeling competitive out there on the track."