Mercedes W13

[pantherxxx]

Very poor drivability. It's a miracle that the gap is not bigger.

[SmOgER]

PU improvements are locked, outside of reliability. Ferrari has really knocked it out of the park with their E10 adaptation. Toto doesn’t know yet whether it’s drag, PU deficiencies, or both, that are hurting them on the main straight.

Well looking at the data for qualifying they are as fast on the straights as Ferrari. You can't just say that this is where they are losing the performance, because they aren't (EDIT: well they are, but mere 1kmh), in relation to that pole lap by Charles.

Quali Speed Trap:

[shamyakovic]

Very poor drivability. It's a miracle that the gap is not bigger.

it's not that bad.
They have obviously raised the rear end, and that's causing loss of downforce and traction. That too only out of slow corners

[AR3-GP]

PU improvements are locked, outside of reliability. Ferrari has really knocked it out of the park with their E10 adaptation. Toto doesn’t know yet whether it’s drag, PU deficiencies, or both, that are hurting them on the main straight.

Well looking at the data for qualifying they are as fast on the straights as Ferrari. You can't just say that this is where they are losing the performance, because they aren't (EDIT: well they are, but mere 1kmh), in relation to that pole lap by Charles.

Quali Speed Trap:
https://i.imgur.com/vvg6v3p.png

Speed traps don't show how quickly you accelerate. Much of the laptime won from a better PU comes from strong acceleration up to a drag limited terminal velocity, not the value of that terminal velocity.

[Big Tea]

PU improvements are locked, outside of reliability. Ferrari has really knocked it out of the park with their E10 adaptation. Toto doesn’t know yet whether it’s drag, PU deficiencies, or both, that are hurting them on the main straight.

Well looking at the data for qualifying they are as fast on the straights as Ferrari. You can't just say that this is where they are losing the performance, because they aren't (EDIT: well they are, but mere 1kmh), in relation to that pole lap by Charles.

Quali Speed Trap:
https://i.imgur.com/vvg6v3p.png

Speed traps don't show how quickly you accelerate. Much of the laptime won from a better PU comes from strong acceleration up to a drag limited terminal velocity, not the value of that terminal velocity.

I think there is stil a lot to come from getting around the corner smartly too. Sooner on the power, sooner away from the corner the better the lap time even with the same top speed

[shamyakovic]

PU improvements are locked, outside of reliability. Ferrari has really knocked it out of the park with their E10 adaptation. Toto doesn’t know yet whether it’s drag, PU deficiencies, or both, that are hurting them on the main straight.

Well looking at the data for qualifying they are as fast on the straights as Ferrari. You can't just say that this is where they are losing the performance, because they aren't (EDIT: well they are, but mere 1kmh), in relation to that pole lap by Charles.

Quali Speed Trap:
https://i.imgur.com/vvg6v3p.png

Speed traps don't show how quickly you accelerate. Much of the laptime won from a better PU comes from strong acceleration up to a drag limited terminal velocity, not the value of that terminal velocity.

Ok so please post those numbers, so that we can understand what's going on

[AR3-GP]

Well looking at the data for qualifying they are as fast on the straights as Ferrari. You can't just say that this is where they are losing the performance, because they aren't (EDIT: well they are, but mere 1kmh), in relation to that pole lap by Charles.

Quali Speed Trap:
https://i.imgur.com/vvg6v3p.png

Speed traps don't show how quickly you accelerate. Much of the laptime won from a better PU comes from strong acceleration up to a drag limited terminal velocity, not the value of that terminal velocity.

Ok so please post those numbers, so that we can understand what's going on

I don't have those numbers. I was only pointing out that speed traps don't tell the whole picture ( except in the case where a certain manufacturer is clustered around the bottom with teams all using difference concepts).

[organic]

Well looking at the data for qualifying they are as fast on the straights as Ferrari. You can't just say that this is where they are losing the performance, because they aren't (EDIT: well they are, but mere 1kmh), in relation to that pole lap by Charles.

Quali Speed Trap:
https://i.imgur.com/vvg6v3p.png

Speed traps don't show how quickly you accelerate. Much of the laptime won from a better PU comes from strong acceleration up to a drag limited terminal velocity, not the value of that terminal velocity.

Ok so please post those numbers, so that we can understand what's going on

Intermediate traps should help right?

[AR3-GP]

Finish line, Intermediate 1, and Intermediate 2 can be a better measure of PU acceleration because we are not near the terminal velocity. Still some drag and ERS effects baked in, but in theory, all teams should have a very similar ERS deployment around the lap because how one distributes the ERS deployment around the lap to maximize lap time is a mathematical optimization problem for which all teams should converge on the same solution.

[shamyakovic]

Speed traps don't show how quickly you accelerate. Much of the laptime won from a better PU comes from strong acceleration up to a drag limited terminal velocity, not the value of that terminal velocity.

Ok so please post those numbers, so that we can understand what's going on

I don't have those numbers. I was only pointing out that speed traps don't tell the whole picture ( except in the case where a certain manufacturer is clustered around the bottom with teams all using difference concepts).

So no numbers, just speculations
So the certain manufacturers clustered in the bottom... OK I would ask u to look at last years quali at Bahrain... excpet for merc/mclaren everyone else were clustered in the bottom. And it has been the same for the last few years.
There were several races last year where the only top merecdes engine team was just the factory team. AM, Williams were always mostly in the bottom of the list last year, mclaren also were sometimes up there or sometimes out of q3. Mclaren today has been having so serious issues with their brakes and have been doing so many compromises with it.
So was it any indication of poor engine last year too?

[AR3-GP]

Ok so please post those numbers, so that we can understand what's going on

I don't have those numbers. I was only pointing out that speed traps don't tell the whole picture ( except in the case where a certain manufacturer is clustered around the bottom with teams all using difference concepts).

So no numbers, just speculations
So the certain manufacturers clustered in the bottom... OK I would ask u to look at last years quali at Bahrain... excpet for merc/mclaren everyone else were clustered in the bottom. And it has been the same for the last few years.
There were several races last year where the only top merecdes engine team was just the factory team. AM, Williams were always mostly in the bottom of the list last year, mclaren also were sometimes up there or sometimes out of q3. Mclaren today has been having so serious issues with their brakes and have been doing so many compromises with it.
So was it any indication of poor engine last year too?

I actually do not know what you are arguing about. I only made a comment that speed traps don't tell how quickly you accelerate and that a "better PU" wins it's laptime in the early acceleration phase.

[shamyakovic]

Speed traps don't show how quickly you accelerate. Much of the laptime won from a better PU comes from strong acceleration up to a drag limited terminal velocity, not the value of that terminal velocity.

Ok so please post those numbers, so that we can understand what's going on

Intermediate traps should help right?

Speed traps also shows that Latifi has been faster on all speed traps that the pole sitter. How will u quantify that? Mercedes faster than ferrari?

And Lewis in comparison to Leclerc
1.1 kph slower in the speed trap
2.9 kph slower in intermediate 1
1.8 kph slower in intermediate 2
2.7 kph slower in intermediate 3

That's not massive at all. 1 to 3 kph slower everywhere? That can easily happen with a tiny twitch out of a corner or running slightly higher wing. So I don't think there is a massive difference.

[shamyakovic]

I don't have those numbers. I was only pointing out that speed traps don't tell the whole picture ( except in the case where a certain manufacturer is clustered around the bottom with teams all using difference concepts).

So no numbers, just speculations
So the certain manufacturers clustered in the bottom... OK I would ask u to look at last years quali at Bahrain... excpet for merc/mclaren everyone else were clustered in the bottom. And it has been the same for the last few years.
There were several races last year where the only top merecdes engine team was just the factory team. AM, Williams were always mostly in the bottom of the list last year, mclaren also were sometimes up there or sometimes out of q3. Mclaren today has been having so serious issues with their brakes and have been doing so many compromises with it.
So was it any indication of poor engine last year too?

I actually do not know what you are arguing about. I only made a comment that speed traps don't tell how quickly you accelerate and that a "better PU" wins it's laptime in the early acceleration phase.

I was responding to you comment above which is bold and underlined

[AR3-GP]

Ok so please post those numbers, so that we can understand what's going on

I don't have those numbers. I was only pointing out that speed traps don't tell the whole picture ( except in the case where a certain manufacturer is clustered around the bottom with teams all using difference concepts).

So no numbers, just speculations
So the certain manufacturers clustered in the bottom... OK I would ask u to look at last years quali at Bahrain... excpet for merc/mclaren everyone else were clustered in the bottom. And it has been the same for the last few years.
There were several races last year where the only top merecdes engine team was just the factory team. AM, Williams were always mostly in the bottom of the list last year, mclaren also were sometimes up there or sometimes out of q3. Mclaren today has been having so serious issues with their brakes and have been doing so many compromises with it.
So was it any indication of poor engine last year too?

But the Merc was a poor engine last season. I'm not sure how much you were aware, but all Merc engines last year had high degradation after 1 or 2 race weekends. The customer teams were "encouraged" to use "only" 4 PUs so they were using conservative engine maps. You should check the old threads and news articles but it was estimated that the Merc PU would start very high, and go backwards to the level of the Renault PU after 3 to 4 weekends.

Anyway, I don't know for certain why the W13 is slow on the straights as many factors come into play, but just noting I don't feel it's coincidence that Ferrari is near the top (at the expense of Merc teams). I hope the thread wardens don't find this too off topic.

[shamyakovic]

I don't have those numbers. I was only pointing out that speed traps don't tell the whole picture ( except in the case where a certain manufacturer is clustered around the bottom with teams all using difference concepts).

So no numbers, just speculations
So the certain manufacturers clustered in the bottom... OK I would ask u to look at last years quali at Bahrain... excpet for merc/mclaren everyone else were clustered in the bottom. And it has been the same for the last few years.
There were several races last year where the only top merecdes engine team was just the factory team. AM, Williams were always mostly in the bottom of the list last year, mclaren also were sometimes up there or sometimes out of q3. Mclaren today has been having so serious issues with their brakes and have been doing so many compromises with it.
So was it any indication of poor engine last year too?

But the Merc was a poor engine last season. I'm not sure how much you were aware, but all Merc engines last year had high degradation after 1 or 2 race weekends. The customer teams were "encouraged" to use "only" 4 PUs so they were using conservative engine maps. You should check the old threads and news articles but it was estimated that the Merc PU would start very high, and go backwards to the level of the Renault PU after 3 to 4 weekends.

Yeah it was an isolated season for engines to degrade.. but I don't know where u got that they will go backwards to renault pu level. But Williams and Racing point has been languishing in the bottom foe very long time. That doesn't make it the engines fault. You are just clutching on straws.

Anyway, I don't know for certain why the W13 is slow on the straights as many factors come into play, but just noting I don't feel it's coincidence that Ferrari is near the top (at the expense of Merc teams). I hope the thread wardens don't find this too off topic.

So again speculations, no facts. If u don't know please don't speculate