Mercedes W13

[Vanja #66]

Won't it still have lesser drag than a conventional sidepods?

Hard to say, maybe not. I'm intrigued, so I'll try and model the new design and do some more CFD to see what's what.

[Froggolo]

Won't it still have lesser drag than a conventional sidepods?

Hard to say, maybe not. I'm intrigued, so I'll try and model the new design and do some more CFD to see what's what.

do you recall the Lambo 291? it was presented with very low and small sidepods, then quickly modified to more squared conventional sidepods due to a lot of aero and drag problems.

[Vanja #66]

do you recall the Lambo 291? it was presented with very low and small sidepods, then quickly modified to more squared conventional sidepods due to a lot of aero and drag problems.

I've seen 291 photos, but I didn't know about the change in design. Thanks

[AeroDynamic]

It's weird that the Mercedes is now fast in slower corners (as is the Ferrari) where Red Bull used to be.

I really would love to see the potential of this package (car and driver) with on par PU and no bouncing. A car that has no bogie traits around any type of corner/straight?

[HungarianRacer]

It's weird that the Mercedes is now fast in slower corners (as is the Ferrari) where Red Bull used to be.

I really would love to see the potential of this package (car and driver) with on par PU and no bouncing. A car that has no bogie traits around any type of corner/straight?

Mercedes has been great, I'd say leading edge in slow corners since 2019... Last year's car with the cut brake ducts and floor was very much "on it's nose" compared to the Red Bull, but it was still the class of the field in slow corners with decently large radiuses (hairpins).

This Mercedes W13 is, as of right now so full of compromises that it's really impossible to make any reasonable guesses about the car concept's inherit strenghts and weaknesses.

[AeroDynamic]

It's weird that the Mercedes is now fast in slower corners (as is the Ferrari) where Red Bull used to be.

I really would love to see the potential of this package (car and driver) with on par PU and no bouncing. A car that has no bogie traits around any type of corner/straight?

Mercedes has been great, I'd say leading-edge in slow corners since 2019... Last year's car with the cut brake ducts and floor was very much "on it's nose" compared to the Red Bull, but it was still the class of the field in slow corners with decently large radiuses (hairpins).

This Mercedes W13 is, as of right now so full of compromises that it's really impossible to make any reasonable guesses about the car concept's inherit strenghts and weaknesses.

Ok, can you break down which corners the Red Bull was worse and better in than the Mercedes in past years? thanks.

[HungarianRacer]

It's weird that the Mercedes is now fast in slower corners (as is the Ferrari) where Red Bull used to be.

I really would love to see the potential of this package (car and driver) with on par PU and no bouncing. A car that has no bogie traits around any type of corner/straight?

Mercedes has been great, I'd say leading-edge in slow corners since 2019... Last year's car with the cut brake ducts and floor was very much "on it's nose" compared to the Red Bull, but it was still the class of the field in slow corners with decently large radiuses (hairpins).

This Mercedes W13 is, as of right now so full of compromises that it's really impossible to make any reasonable guesses about the car concept's inherit strenghts and weaknesses.

Ok, can you break down which corners the Red Bull was worse and better in than the Mercedes in past years? thanks.

I mean, as for 2021, there was a fair amount of nuance to it (certainly more than what the official site's tech articles and mainstream portals would have you believe), but generally speaking, the Mercedes had an advantage in front-limited turns and around tracks that disproportionately stressed the front axle, opposite was true for Red Bull, evidently.

But that has little to no bearing on the W13 (must avoid veering away from topic)...

[Henri]

No side pods has big drag on the rear tyres thats why its not as fast as redbull and ferrari in straight line speed.. but the concept has more downforce

[LM10]

No side pods has big drag on the rear tyres thats why its not as fast as redbull and ferrari in straight line speed.. but the concept has more downforce

Sorry, but what they've tried here in order to explain drag on rear tyres is just stupid.

We know from Vanja's CFD analysis that the Ferrari has less drag on rear tyres, but this extremely simplistic graph does not show anything. It does not even make sense if you compare the Ferrari and the RBR. The blue part on the Ferrari is bigger which would suggest more drag on rear tyre than the RBR, but a closer look shows that the reason the blue part is bigger is the inboard shaping of the cover around the gearbox, so a more coke-bottle-like design. But that part is making up the space between the tyre and suspension arms. So it does not mean extra flow to the rear tyre.

Same goes for Mercedes for that part. It has a coke-bottle area there so naturally the blue part will be bigger.

[wogx]

Do we have any insight that Mercedes could be cooling-limited during the race, because of their tight sidepod concept? Their drivers won't be driving mostly in clean air, like they usually did in the past.

[basti313]

No side pods has big drag on the rear tyres thats why its not as fast as redbull and ferrari in straight line speed.. but the concept has more downforce

Sorry, but what they've tried here in order to explain drag on rear tyres is just stupid.

We know from Vanja's CFD analysis that the Ferrari has less drag on rear tyres, but this extremely simplistic graph does not show anything. It does not even make sense if you compare the Ferrari and the RBR. The blue part on the Ferrari is bigger which would suggest more drag on rear tyre than the RBR, but a closer look shows that the reason the blue part is bigger is the inboard shaping of the cover around the gearbox, so a more coke-bottle-like design. But that part is making up the space between the tyre and suspension arms. So it does not mean extra flow to the rear tyre.

Same goes for Mercedes for that part. It has a coke-bottle area there so naturally the blue part will be bigger.

I agree, but you can easily compare Bull and Ferrari to the Merc. Both Bull and Ferrari have structures to direct flow outwards.For the Bull I think the last upgrade with the groove on the sidepod also directly aims the rear wheel.

In contrast on the Merc there is no structure like this. The wing on the side impact structure is a pure downwash wing.
So I think it is obvious that they are getting more drag from the wheel.

I think Bahrain is a bad track to elaborate on this as too much goes straight. On other tracks with more fast corners the Merc will be much better suited and with a bit less weight I do not see them far away, just different concept. In the current shape they will only suffer especially on stop and go tracks.

[214270]

I think Merc were ambitious where other teams conceded and used wide sidepods as their flow control method. I think with the simplified aero rules, it was always going to be a tall order to shape/turn flow as per previous with the limited aero devices available now. I suspect they thought they’d have a superior PU as well to help mitigate the drag penalty. It’s early days & as much as I adore the concept, I don’t think it has legs.

It actually looks to me like an extension of last year, where new rules hurt Mercs expertise particularly. I think they may be missing an old-timer in their design team who can guide as I don’t think the complexity's Merc have become renowned for is set to be rewarded in quite the same way moving forward.

[ringo]

The Mercedes does not have more drag than the ferrari.
They decided to put more drag on the car than they expected to compensate for their issues.

Drag has a direct relationship with frontal area and pressure differential. As we see from the race, the redbull has better speed from the Ferrari, which I figured would be the case. Drag has three classifications of course, but at these speeds the frontal area is more critical.
The crash structure wing on mercedes does not have more drag than usual. It simply doesn't.
The ferrari powered cars clearly have an edge now, as we see Alpha and Haas doing very well, but still the F175 could not catch redbull with the "weaker" engine.

I am encouraged by the improvements of the W13, despite it being 1 second per lap off the pace. The podium at least proves its reliability.

[dialtone]

The Mercedes does not have more drag than the ferrari.
They decided to put more drag on the car than they expected to compensate for their issues.

Drag has a direct relationship with frontal area and pressure differential. As we see from the race, the redbull has better speed from the Ferrari, which I figured would be the case. Drag has three classifications of course, but at these speeds the frontal area is more critical.
The crash structure wing on mercedes does not have more drag than usual. It simply doesn't.
The ferrari powered cars clearly have an edge now, as we see Alpha and Haas doing very well, but still the F175 could not catch redbull with the "weaker" engine.

I am encouraged by the improvements of the W13, despite it being 1 second per lap off the pace. The podium at least proves its reliability.

Must have watched a different race… the only way Verstappen got to pass Leclerc was by lunging in the corner compromising T1 exit.

Toto said the W13 is draggier and you come out saying it isn’t? Could it be Toto is right?

[ringo]

I interpreted it has it's draggier than they had planned for. As a compromise for their issues.