Mercedes W13

[Big Tea]

Okay, I take this with pleasure! 27 points on the board in a malfunctioning car which is also a test behind.
Lewis could even follow in the first 10 laps or so. Imagine them getting this thing sorted!
Toto talked about low hanging fruit which could give our boys lots of opportunities to maximize until further progress (maybe from race 4/6 somewhere) can be made.

How much are we down?

0.5 in qwf
1sec in race pace (but this seems unlikely to me considering Lewis could follow at the beginning and in the end a bit.

Also, bahrain might have worsened the bouncing, although I'm not too optimistic for the next one in that regard (hearing it might be worse or a bit better, dunno)

The anomality today was that there was not a stream of cars waiting to jump into that gap. In past races there would have been the likes of Mclaren Renault AT AM etc pushing to close up that area that Merc fell into and lets face it, despite doing everything they could, inherited the points.

Still, points in the bag are points in the bag

[Dr. Acula]

Okay, I take this with pleasure! 27 points on the board in a malfunctioning car which is also a test behind.
Lewis could even follow in the first 10 laps or so. Imagine them getting this thing sorted!
Toto talked about low hanging fruit which could give our boys lots of opportunities to maximize until further progress (maybe from race 4/6 somewhere) can be made.

How much are we down?

0.5 in qwf
1sec in race pace (but this seems unlikely to me considering Lewis could follow at the beginning and in the end a bit.

Also, bahrain might have worsened the bouncing, although I'm not too optimistic for the next one in that regard (hearing it might be worse or a bit better, dunno)

Well, Lewis could follow until he was out of the DRS window, then he started to really lose time. Also Russel and Hamilton both said already on Saturday that they are more worried about their race pace. You can achieve one good lap even in a pig of a car. But you can't keep that pace up over a race distance. Also Mercedes seems to have higher tire degredation especially compared with Ferrari. The Mercs generally had pretty short stints with softs.

[dialtone]

Which is striking to me is that merc is not that far off considering the other 2 have no such issues as merc has
+ the other 2 already have dialed in theirs cars somewhat. You would expect them to be further down the road giving all the issues merc has and time lots to bouncingsolving during testing.

Exactly. If they an get the car to run happily at the correct ride height, they will up there and annoying the other two front teams. Not so sure about the lack of top speed on the straights, however. Max came from so back against LeClerc it was unfunny. If that had been Max against a Mercedes, he'd have started his overtake last week and still made it through. The Merc is like a GP2 car on the straights.

A couple of things here:
* If you look at the telemetry Leclerc literally let Verstappen through at the end of the straight. He would stop at 280kmh rather than the usual 300+ kmh. He said so himself because he wanted to have DRS on the 2nd straight to T4 and be in front the rest of the lap.
* Other cars are not dialed in, they all have higher ride height and stiffer suspension than they would like to avoid porpoising and are all working on new floors to go back to low ride with less compromises.

[dialtone]

Its more like 0.5 in both trims. They made themselves look worse in the race by fitting the hard tyres.

Nope. They were 1s a lap slower than the front four once the initial yee-haw early laps were done.

So they were almost on the pace.. Then 1 second off once into their expected positions? Not plausible that lewis has slowed down purposely at that point?
I dont see it being 1 second average the same tyres.

You can check here: https://www.f1-tempo.com/

after the first 4 laps, HAM was 1s slower any lap you pick, same tire or different tire.

[zibby43]

Which is striking to me is that merc is not that far off considering the other 2 have no such issues as merc has
+ the other 2 already have dialed in theirs cars somewhat. You would expect them to be further down the road giving all the issues merc has and time lots to bouncingsolving during testing.

Exactly. If they an get the car to run happily at the correct ride height, they will up there and annoying the other two front teams. Not so sure about the lack of top speed on the straights, however. Max came from so back against LeClerc it was unfunny. If that had been Max against a Mercedes, he'd have started his overtake last week and still made it through. The Merc is like a GP2 car on the straights.

* Other cars are not dialed in, they all have higher ride height and stiffer suspension than they would like to avoid porpoising and are all working on new floors to go back to low ride with less compromises.

It’s all relative though, and it’s quite clear to everyone that the ride height changes Merc have needed to make are more drastic than anything RB and Ferrari have done.

The W13 is quite literally frozen in development until the baseline proposing is solved.

I know you’re determined to somehow prove that Merc can’t fix their issues, but the evidence presented thus far isn’t compelling.

[dialtone]

Exactly. If they an get the car to run happily at the correct ride height, they will up there and annoying the other two front teams. Not so sure about the lack of top speed on the straights, however. Max came from so back against LeClerc it was unfunny. If that had been Max against a Mercedes, he'd have started his overtake last week and still made it through. The Merc is like a GP2 car on the straights.

* Other cars are not dialed in, they all have higher ride height and stiffer suspension than they would like to avoid porpoising and are all working on new floors to go back to low ride with less compromises.

It’s all relative though, and it’s quite clear to everyone that the ride height changes Merc have needed to make are more drastic than anything RB and Ferrari have done.

The W13 is quite literally frozen in development until the baseline proposing is solved.

I know you’re determined to somehow prove that Merc can’t fix their issues, but the evidence presented thus far isn’t compelling.

On the contrary I'm convinced they'll fix their issues, they won 8 WCC in a row and dominated an era, and there's no way they can be counted out even in this state. If they stay like this for a month I'll be a very happy Ferrari fan.

However I do find the narrative here funny. First was Merc was going to blow everyone away with the A car, it's Merc. Then they'll blow everyone away with the B car and it's ominous™, 1.5s faster in wind tunnel. Then they are just sandbagging their testing issues but will bring a floor and will fix this simple issue before the race. Other teams saying they tried that concept and chose not to go deeper on it wasn't true or they didn't develop enough, then they'll fix the issue overnight anyway before quali. Then in quali they're not actually 0.5/7 behind but only 0.3 if you cherry pick stuff. Then they aren't really 1s off pace in race, they just need to lower the car a bit and they'll gain 20 seconds a lap...

It kinda lacks for respect for other teams too, as if no other team can build a decent car and Merc can do nothing bad, and even when it seems bad, they're just sandbagging or part of some grander plan. Merc themselves are humbler than this.

In my opinion what is going on is: they don't know what the issue is exactly and don't know when W13 will be fixed yet, they will 100% solve this issue very very soon and the pace after that is absolutely unknown right now. It's also unlikely that all customer teams built mini-vans for the season while in 2014 any Merc powered car was lapping everyone around even on 3 wheels.

Here's another reality: if Ferrari was the team 0.5 behind in quali and 1s behind in race it would be Next Year™

[AMG.Tzan]

Anyone know if Lewis was using the new floor and Russel the old one?? I think so cause Russel was porpoising more...

[AeroDynamic]

* Other cars are not dialed in, they all have higher ride height and stiffer suspension than they would like to avoid porpoising and are all working on new floors to go back to low ride with less compromises.

It’s all relative though, and it’s quite clear to everyone that the ride height changes Merc have needed to make are more drastic than anything RB and Ferrari have done.

The W13 is quite literally frozen in development until the baseline proposing is solved.

I know you’re determined to somehow prove that Merc can’t fix their issues, but the evidence presented thus far isn’t compelling.

On the contrary I'm convinced they'll fix their issues, they won 8 WCC in a row and dominated an era, and there's no way they can be counted out even in this state. If they stay like this for a month I'll be a very happy Ferrari fan.

However I do find the narrative here funny. First was Merc was going to blow everyone away with the A car, it's Merc. Then they'll blow everyone away with the B car and it's ominous™, 1.5s faster in wind tunnel. Then they are just sandbagging their testing issues but will bring a floor and will fix this simple issue before the race. Other teams saying they tried that concept and chose not to go deeper on it wasn't true or they didn't develop enough, then they'll fix the issue overnight anyway before quali. Then in quali they're not actually 0.5/7 behind but only 0.3 if you cherry pick stuff. Then they aren't really 1s off pace in race, they just need to lower the car a bit and they'll gain 20 seconds a lap...

It kinda lacks for respect for other teams too, as if no other team can build a decent car and Merc can do nothing bad, and even when it seems bad, they're just sandbagging or part of some grander plan. Merc themselves are humbler than this.

In my opinion what is going on is: they don't know what the issue is exactly and don't know when W13 will be fixed yet, they will 100% solve this issue very very soon and the pace after that is absolutely unknown right now. It's also unlikely that all customer teams built mini-vans for the season while in 2014 any Merc powered car was lapping everyone around even on 3 wheels.

Here's another reality: if Ferrari was the team 0.5 behind in quali and 1s behind in race it would be Next Year™

What Merc did in the past is a lot less relevant now. They weren't operating under this new wind tunnel / CFD cap... no budget cap. They can't throw everything they have at the problem. their resources is completely bottlenecked by the regulation. They have a lot of the same talent and facilities but not the same resource of time and money to solve it. If a team can do it with this challenge, they can but it's a tall order depending on how challenging the issues are to understand/develop solutions for.

If they're going to be in with a chance of any titles, they need a reliability advantage like Ferrari had in some of the Fernando years to bring them closer to the top in the standings. And they must solve some of the issues that unlock big performance gains within 7 races really. After that they need to develop to get ahead or stay ahead of the other teams developments that they are working on right now while Merc try and fix their car.

[Watto]

It’s all relative though, and it’s quite clear to everyone that the ride height changes Merc have needed to make are more drastic than anything RB and Ferrari have done.

The W13 is quite literally frozen in development until the baseline proposing is solved.

I know you’re determined to somehow prove that Merc can’t fix their issues, but the evidence presented thus far isn’t compelling.

On the contrary I'm convinced they'll fix their issues, they won 8 WCC in a row and dominated an era, and there's no way they can be counted out even in this state. If they stay like this for a month I'll be a very happy Ferrari fan.

However I do find the narrative here funny. First was Merc was going to blow everyone away with the A car, it's Merc. Then they'll blow everyone away with the B car and it's ominous™, 1.5s faster in wind tunnel. Then they are just sandbagging their testing issues but will bring a floor and will fix this simple issue before the race. Other teams saying they tried that concept and chose not to go deeper on it wasn't true or they didn't develop enough, then they'll fix the issue overnight anyway before quali. Then in quali they're not actually 0.5/7 behind but only 0.3 if you cherry pick stuff. Then they aren't really 1s off pace in race, they just need to lower the car a bit and they'll gain 20 seconds a lap...

It kinda lacks for respect for other teams too, as if no other team can build a decent car and Merc can do nothing bad, and even when it seems bad, they're just sandbagging or part of some grander plan. Merc themselves are humbler than this.

In my opinion what is going on is: they don't know what the issue is exactly and don't know when W13 will be fixed yet, they will 100% solve this issue very very soon and the pace after that is absolutely unknown right now. It's also unlikely that all customer teams built mini-vans for the season while in 2014 any Merc powered car was lapping everyone around even on 3 wheels.

Here's another reality: if Ferrari was the team 0.5 behind in quali and 1s behind in race it would be Next Year™

What Merc did in the past is a lot less relevant now. They weren't operating under this new wind tunnel / CFD cap... no budget cap. They can't throw everything they have at the problem. their resources is completely bottlenecked by the regulation. They have a lot of the same talent and facilities but not the same resource of time and money to solve it. If a team can do it with this challenge, they can but it's a tall order depending on how challenging the issues are to understand/develop solutions for.

If they're going to be in with a chance of any titles, they need a reliability advantage like Ferrari had in some of the Fernando years to bring them closer to the top in the standings. And they must solve some of the issues that unlock big performance gains within 7 races really. After that they need to develop to get ahead or stay ahead of the other teams developments that they are working on right now while Merc try and fix their car.

'
I still think they can claw it back. But in addition to what you've commented on, in previous years they could draw on last years car what changed and give an idea into whats causing the issues. This year there probably isn't anywhere near as much of a knowledgeable to draw on to fix the issue. That doesn't mean they can't and won't fix them, Just question low long it takes them to get on top of the problems

[ringo]

Which is striking to me is that merc is not that far off considering the other 2 have no such issues as merc has
+ the other 2 already have dialed in theirs cars somewhat. You would expect them to be further down the road giving all the issues merc has and time lots to bouncingsolving during testing.

Exactly. If they an get the car to run happily at the correct ride height, they will up there and annoying the other two front teams. Not so sure about the lack of top speed on the straights, however. Max came from so back against LeClerc it was unfunny. If that had been Max against a Mercedes, he'd have started his overtake last week and still made it through. The Merc is like a GP2 car on the straights.

Why did his car have so many sparks going offline to overtake leclerc?
Does the RB18 squat the rear down under braking, what's happening exactly?

Mercedes need to hope the W13 is built like a tank and redbull has more reliability issues while they sort out the w13.
Last year it took them till silverstone to sort out the car.

[zibby43]

* Other cars are not dialed in, they all have higher ride height and stiffer suspension than they would like to avoid porpoising and are all working on new floors to go back to low ride with less compromises.

It’s all relative though, and it’s quite clear to everyone that the ride height changes Merc have needed to make are more drastic than anything RB and Ferrari have done.

The W13 is quite literally frozen in development until the baseline proposing is solved.

I know you’re determined to somehow prove that Merc can’t fix their issues, but the evidence presented thus far isn’t compelling.

On the contrary I'm convinced they'll fix their issues, they won 8 WCC in a row and dominated an era, and there's no way they can be counted out even in this state. If they stay like this for a month I'll be a very happy Ferrari fan.

However I do find the narrative here funny. First was Merc was going to blow everyone away with the A car, it's Merc. Then they'll blow everyone away with the B car and it's ominous™, 1.5s faster in wind tunnel. Then they are just sandbagging their testing issues but will bring a floor and will fix this simple issue before the race. Other teams saying they tried that concept and chose not to go deeper on it wasn't true or they didn't develop enough, then they'll fix the issue overnight anyway before quali. Then in quali they're not actually 0.5/7 behind but only 0.3 if you cherry pick stuff. Then they aren't really 1s off pace in race, they just need to lower the car a bit and they'll gain 20 seconds a lap...

It kinda lacks for respect for other teams too, as if no other team can build a decent car and Merc can do nothing bad, and even when it seems bad, they're just sandbagging or part of some grander plan. Merc themselves are humbler than this.

In my opinion what is going on is: they don't know what the issue is exactly and don't know when W13 will be fixed yet, they will 100% solve this issue very very soon and the pace after that is absolutely unknown right now. It's also unlikely that all customer teams built mini-vans for the season while in 2014 any Merc powered car was lapping everyone around even on 3 wheels.

Here's another reality: if Ferrari was the team 0.5 behind in quali and 1s behind in race it would be Next Year™

So, because other fans have said things that have irked you, you’re choosing to be petty?

lol. Well, it was pretty transparent before, but that clears it up. I also saw virtually no Merc fans claiming sandbagging. It was fans, drivers, and team personnel of other teams claiming Merc were playing up their troubles lol.

Literally the opposite of what you were claiming.

And I can’t speak for anyone but myself, but I’ve been very complimentary of Ferrari since their car reveal.

Also, talking about respect. If I had a penny, not even a nickel, for every time I had to read fans of other teams accusing Mercedes of “cheating” when achieving their success throughout the hybrid era, I’d be retired already. It’s multiple claims of cheating per season.

Just last year, it was: FW flap, rear suspension, engine, engine usage, etc. And they weren’t even dominant lol.

Only team we know of that got caught pushing the rules too far recently was Ferrari lol. But, they paid for it, so I’m willing to acknowledge their clawing their way back from being a midfield team.

So, please spare me the entire magnanimous fanbase thing lol. Most of the posters on here are concerned about the technical aspects of the car, so I don’t concern myself with the other BS.

[zibby43]

From AMuS:

The engineers now understand the car better. But it will be a while before the bouncing disappears and the team is no longer forced to make such major compromises when it comes to setup. Mercedes is aiming for a cure by the start of the European season in Imola. That would already be the end of April, and should happen through a better understanding. Hamilton fears: "We have a fundamental problem. It will take a while."

To put it in numbers: Mercedes is half a second behind on one lap. The gap grows over the distance because the Silver Arrow works the tires harder. An example: after 34 laps, Hamilton was 28.8 seconds behind. That corresponds to eight tenths of a second per lap. The engine is no longer life insurance for Mercedes. There seems to be some performance missing. Suboptimal after the combustion engine was frozen in early March. However, it must be mentioned that Mercedes added a lot of dirty downforce via the rear wing and beam wing. That reduced the top speed.

[siskue2005]

From AMuS:

The engineers now understand the car better. But it will be a while before the bouncing disappears and the team is no longer forced to make such major compromises when it comes to setup. Mercedes is aiming for a cure by the start of the European season in Imola. That would already be the end of April, and should happen through a better understanding. Hamilton fears: "We have a fundamental problem. It will take a while."

To put it in numbers: Mercedes is half a second behind on one lap. The gap grows over the distance because the Silver Arrow works the tires harder. An example: after 34 laps, Hamilton was 28.8 seconds behind. That corresponds to eight tenths of a second per lap. The engine is no longer life insurance for Mercedes. There seems to be some performance missing. Suboptimal after the combustion engine was frozen in early March. However, it must be mentioned that Mercedes added a lot of dirty downforce via the rear wing and beam wing. That reduced the top speed.

Let's wait and see what will happen. If they understand it then a solution is close by

[De Jokke]

Also heard in Ted's notebook that all merc teams bar williams had to manage engine temps during the race.
And that after testing (all the cooling solutions)...

[GrizzleBoy]

Also read that all merc teams, bar williams had to manage engine temps during the race.
And that after testing (all the cooling solutions)...

I've been thinking a lot about the cooling for the merc engine teams and the extremely boxy shapes around and behind the air boxes all bar Aston Martin have gone with.

I don't know, the shape just seems so suboptimal aero wise.

Bahrain wasn't even hot in qualifying and Race settings so how will they fare in genuinely hot races?