2022 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, March 25 - 27

[LM10]

Honda is the most powerful engine, no doubt about it...

I think it’s early to say with certainty. While RBR has the higher top speeds, the Ferrari has the better low to mid speed acceleration which usually is a better indication for power.

In Bahrain the RBR had less rear wing. In Jeddah it’s again the case and this time even more so it looks like when comparing the rear wings.

Another thing to consider is if or which of the teams even turned it up. Ferrari is rumored to have not stressed the PU in this season yet and was not planning to do it in Jeddah either. Only later in the season once they’ve further checked the reliability.

The most crucial information we have is from Binotto and if he is to be believed, Ferrari is at least on par with others, if not ahead. That’s what he told.

Mercedes claimed that they were slow at bahrain because they used bigger rear wing. I don't know if they are good at max speed here while they are looking like they had cut their rear wing from top as Toto had said. They use smaller sidepod smaller wing and if they are slower....
I think you cannot compare two teams' df and drag level just looking rear wing.
Better low speed acceleration means power? For me this is very strange.

The rear wing is the draggiest downforce producing part on a car. Of course you cannot compare whole drag levels only by looking at the rear wing, but it certainly is a key factor.

Better low to mid speed acceleration - or in other words the acceleration when traction does not matter anymore - is indicative of power. Ferrari not only has better low speed acceleration, but also low to mid speed acceleration.
In higher speeds drag is more crucial.

[morefirejules08]

I’m not sure what that has to do with the conversation, but thanks for sharing.

It explains why some would take schadenfreude in the Mercedes HPP hybrid power unit being uncompetitive, given how Mercedes Motorsport did very little to support Red Bull Racing's very long-running quest for a competitive hybrid power unit.

How would the sport have looked with 2.4L V8 engines until the present day? Who knows!

I mean you can’t exactly blame MB for not supplying their closest rival, but still that has nothing to really do with my point.

[LM10]

Sainz still bouncing, what's so different between his car and Leclerc's?

Despite Charles ending FP3 in front Max looked like he had more on hand.

definitely, he probably would have been sth like 3 or 4 tenths quicker without that mistake. But Red Bull tends to run FP3 with a bit more power, while (going by the small gap to Bottas) Ferrari looks likely to still have it turned down

I think you might have misunderstood what Sevach was trying to say. I’m sure he meant that Charles seemed to have more in hand despite being faster than Max.
And for me as well it looked like that.

[LM10]

Was actually 0.18s, but yes, ferrari is consistently beter in S1.

Oh alright, missed that!
Didn’t Max do his fastest S1 time in his fastest lap? Because when compared to that lap, Charles’ S1 was 3 tenths faster.

He improved in S1 on his aborted lap.

Oh alright, missed that!

[dialtone]

This is the telemetry with VER's aborted lap in:


I think this is a higher engine mode judging by acceleration and top speed in the second half of the track. The curve is sure impressive but from Bahrain we figured traction and acceleration between VER and LEC is at least similar.

[PlatinumZealot]

I’m not sure what that has to do with the conversation, but thanks for sharing.

It explains why some would take schadenfreude in the Mercedes HPP turbo hybrid power unit being uncompetitive, given how Mercedes Motorsport did very little to support Red Bull Racing's very long-running quest for a competitive turbo hybrid power unit.

How would the sport have looked with 2.4L V8 engines until the present day? Who knows! Ricciardo and Verstappen would likely have had far better opportunities to compete for championships without such a power deficiency.

Confusing switching between Mercedes HPP and Mercedes GP. I think the word Mercedes alone is understood.

Anyway Mercedes didn't want RedBull as a customer for their engines and it was the right decision!

[etusch]

I’m not sure what that has to do with the conversation, but thanks for sharing.

It explains why some would take schadenfreude in the Mercedes HPP turbo hybrid power unit being uncompetitive, given how Mercedes Motorsport did very little to support Red Bull Racing's very long-running quest for a competitive turbo hybrid power unit.

How would the sport have looked with 2.4L V8 engines until the present day? Who knows! Ricciardo and Verstappen would likely have had far better opportunities to compete for championships without such a power deficiency.

Confusing switching between Mercedes HPP and Mercedes GP. I think the word Mercedes alone is understood.

Anyway Mercedes didn't want RedBull as a customer for their engines and it was the right decision!

of course right decision. but not because merc decided nkt to supply but because of final result of that. Off course this years merc performance is a plus

[jz11]

Again, not MB’s fault. You would be extremely hard pressed to find a single sporting organisation willing to supply a direct competitor with an asset which would potentially make them superior.
And this still has nothing to do with my original point, it seems you are just trying to find an excuse for those who now wish to celebrate MB’s recent supposed failure.

your original point was that someone who likes the apparent lack of power from Mercedes PUs, is a bad person - because he is enjoying someones "misfortune"

and then you pretend not to understand reasons behind people liking Mercedes not being at the top again, which makes you either not a smart person, or a hypocrite

they don't like Mercedes because they say they are all for fair competition, yet obviously made sure they were not in a position to supply RB with their PU, and at the time the "rules" were set that any team has a chance of getting any PU, because FIA made sure they are all more or less equal, and we know quite well how equal they were

this is why people who follow this sport and want to see competition for 1. spot not be between 2 drivers of the same team year after year after year

I also don't understand how anyone watching it this year can say - RB obviously has the best PU, because I see Ferrari well ahead, RB second, then Renault and then Mercedes, but I think Merc won't stay there for long, once they'll sort the engine, they'll be right there at the front, I'm guessing the car problems they have are largely due to obvious lack of performance from the PU, there has been lots of evidence for it in these past years, when the PU performance isn't there, the car seems to just not work, when in fact, the operating window of all the elements on the car is tuned for the expected power output of the PU, if the power isn't there (for whatever reason) - you can't compensate for with anything on the car
and this is also why Renault have said - they focus on the power output, and will replace PUs as needed, because if they don't run the PU at expected power - then the whole car concept falls apart

[etusch]

are they childishly prevent some success

What?

Is it not Mercedes preventing Ricciardo and Verstappen having a chance at WDC success by not allowing a Red Bull - Mercedes / Aston Martin deal when Red Bull were more than happy to lease the Mercedes HPP power units at full commercial rates?

this guy described not wanting someones success is childish. (in fact I ok with this) So Mercedes didn't supply Redbull because they would be succesful that power. Mercedes still can say "our pu won" if Redbull win with it. But they didn't see that rivalry while they are talking so much about how much they like competition and Challenges

[morefirejules08]

Again, not MB’s fault. You would be extremely hard pressed to find a single sporting organisation willing to supply a direct competitor with an asset which would potentially make them superior.
And this still has nothing to do with my original point, it seems you are just trying to find an excuse for those who now wish to celebrate MB’s recent supposed failure.

your original point was that someone who likes the apparent lack of power from Mercedes PUs, is a bad person - because he is enjoying someones "misfortune"

and then you pretend not to understand reasons behind people liking Mercedes not being at the top again, which makes you either not a smart person, or a hypocrite

they don't like Mercedes because they say they are all for fair competition, yet obviously made sure they were not in a position to supply RB with their PU, and at the time the "rules" were set that any team has a chance of getting any PU, because FIA made sure they are all more or less equal, and we know quite well how equal they were

this is why people who follow this sport and want to see competition for 1. spot not be between 2 drivers of the same team year after year after year

I also don't understand how anyone watching it this year can say - RB obviously has the best PU, because I see Ferrari well ahead, RB second, then Renault and then Mercedes, but I think Merc won't stay there for long, once they'll sort the engine, they'll be right there at the front, I'm guessing the car problems they have are largely due to obvious lack of performance from the PU, there has been lots of evidence for it in these past years, when the PU performance isn't there, the car seems to just not work, when in fact, the operating window of all the elements on the car is tuned for the expected power output of the PU, if the power isn't there (for whatever reason) - you can't compensate for with anything on the car
and this is also why Renault have said - they focus on the power output, and will replace PUs as needed, because if they don't run the PU at expected power - then the whole car concept falls apart

You seem to have completely misunderstood my point, then created a whole post around that misunderstanding which has little to do with what I actually said in the first place.
I would suggest you re-read my comment and have another go at a reply.

[Bill_Kar]

My prediction : LEC on pole, 1 tenth faster than MV.

[etusch]

I think it’s early to say with certainty. While RBR has the higher top speeds, the Ferrari has the better low to mid speed acceleration which usually is a better indication for power.

In Bahrain the RBR had less rear wing. In Jeddah it’s again the case and this time even more so it looks like when comparing the rear wings.

Another thing to consider is if or which of the teams even turned it up. Ferrari is rumored to have not stressed the PU in this season yet and was not planning to do it in Jeddah either. Only later in the season once they’ve further checked the reliability.

The most crucial information we have is from Binotto and if he is to be believed, Ferrari is at least on par with others, if not ahead. That’s what he told.

Mercedes claimed that they were slow at bahrain because they used bigger rear wing. I don't know if they are good at max speed here while they are looking like they had cut their rear wing from top as Toto had said. They use smaller sidepod smaller wing and if they are slower....
I think you cannot compare two teams' df and drag level just looking rear wing.
Better low speed acceleration means power? For me this is very strange.

The rear wing is the draggiest downforce producing part on a car. Of course you cannot compare whole drag levels only by looking at the rear wing, but it certainly is a key factor.

Better low to mid speed acceleration - or in other words the acceleration when traction does not matter anymore - is indicative of power. Ferrari not only has better low speed acceleration, but also low to mid speed acceleration.
In higher speeds drag is more crucial.

so if drag mora crucial at high speed, Redbull 's drag also goes up and when I think Redbull has higher top speed drag is also goes higher.
Accelerating good at lower speed needs shorter gear ratios and good df at lower speed to be able to use more power at lower speed. They choose to ne faster at there. I don't know what they will get if they try same with Redbull.
I am not sure how much advantage there for Ferrari's acceleration speed compared to Redbull's acceleration speed. Will it that much to equilise top speed advantage?

[variante]

Here's the FP3 telemetry and judging by the straight to T27 and to finish line I don't think VER has more in the bag than LEC.

https://i.imgur.com/fks3i0S.png

Ferrari looks to not have accelerated much in those last 2 straights actually but totally dominant in T4-12 and came out of T17 and T22 with so much more speed than the rest.

Also starting lap speed was much lower from LEC as well as plenty of lifting from LEC still.

It does seem like LEC can go faster by quite a margin.

I tend to agree.
In FP2 both Ferrari and RedBull were topping at 11500rpm on the straight. Same acceleration, comparable top speed.
In FP3, Ferrari still at 11500rpm, RedBull at 11750rpm. RB accelerate harder and reaches a much higher top speed

Ferrari have been running the same engine mode as in Bahrain's quali, while RedBull one step above.
But let's see whether Ferrari actually unleash that further bit of power in this quali session...

[GrizzleBoy]

Latifi really not doing well in F1.

Bad end to 2021. Worse start to 2022.

[wogx]

Session red flagged, Latifi crashed.

That helmet cam showed exatly how brutal a crash like that is.