2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[SiLo]

What I can't get my head around is why the merc launch car ALREADY had the steepest front and rear wing on the grid, if the problem has turned out to be an overabundance of drag?

Did they overestimate the power of their engine?

Did they underestimate the power of the other engines?

Basically, if drag is such a concern, why did the W13 leave the factory with hugemongous wings in the first place?

They are running big wings because they can't run the car as close to the ground as they want. The launch spec doesn't matter too much.

[silver]

What I can't get my head around is why the merc launch car ALREADY had the steepest front and rear wing on the grid, if the problem has turned out to be an overabundance of drag?

Did they overestimate the power of their engine?

Did they underestimate the power of the other engines?

Basically, if drag is such a concern, why did the W13 leave the factory with hugemongous wings in the first place?

They are running big wings because they can't run the car as close to the ground as they want. The launch spec doesn't matter too much.

It was a fair question and there must have been some good (or misplaced) reasons around why they had such a wing at the launch itself. It is possible that the reference parameters were miscalculated (in the hindsight), which is possible when everyone was working in dark and had no clear idea of what the reference performance would be. For an organization like Mercedes, it's easy to know their drag levels and I don't think they are surprised with their own number, but the surprise for them would be to see the drag levels of others and where they stand in relation. I think it was similar on the engine performance.

[SiLo]

What I can't get my head around is why the merc launch car ALREADY had the steepest front and rear wing on the grid, if the problem has turned out to be an overabundance of drag?

Did they overestimate the power of their engine?

Did they underestimate the power of the other engines?

Basically, if drag is such a concern, why did the W13 leave the factory with hugemongous wings in the first place?

They are running big wings because they can't run the car as close to the ground as they want. The launch spec doesn't matter too much.

It was a fair question and there must have been some good (or misplaced) reasons around why they had such a wing at the launch itself. It is possible that the reference parameters were miscalculated (in the hindsight), which is possible when everyone was working in dark and had no clear idea of what the reference performance would be. For an organization like Mercedes, it's easy to know their drag levels and I don't think they are surprised with their own number, but the surprise for them would be to see the drag levels of others and where they stand in relation. I think it was similar on the engine performance.

When when you first launch the car I imagine you want as much downforce as you can get. Because removing it is far easier than adding it to balance the car.

If they could run the floor closer and not bounce, they would likely trim the wings a bit.

[silver]

They are running big wings because they can't run the car as close to the ground as they want. The launch spec doesn't matter too much.

It was a fair question and there must have been some good (or misplaced) reasons around why they had such a wing at the launch itself. It is possible that the reference parameters were miscalculated (in the hindsight), which is possible when everyone was working in dark and had no clear idea of what the reference performance would be. For an organization like Mercedes, it's easy to know their drag levels and I don't think they are surprised with their own number, but the surprise for them would be to see the drag levels of others and where they stand in relation. I think it was similar on the engine performance.

When when you first launch the car I imagine you want as much downforce as you can get. Because removing it is far easier than adding it to balance the car.

If they could run the floor closer and not bounce, they would likely trim the wings a bit.

What puzzles me is a recent statement made by Mike Elliott in one of the videos prior to launch, where he said the new cars are “relatively similar to last year” in performance. In Bahrain qualifying, W13 was almost 2 seconds slower than W12. That doesn't sound like "relatively similar". There must have been something or some things out of order in terms of meeting expectations, porpoising aside which is a new finding.



[Edit] On race pace, W13 is a second slower than RB18 and F1-75. It's over 1% performance difference over a lap of a 94 second race lap. How much of it can be associated with drag, lack of downforce due to riding higher and missing power or may be many other smaller issues.

[wogx]

On race pace, W13 is a second slower than RB18 and F1-75. It's over 10% performance difference over a lap of a 94 second race lap.

I'm a bit lost with my math

[silver]

On race pace, W13 is a second slower than RB18 and F1-75. It's over 10% performance difference over a lap of a 94 second race lap.

I'm a bit lost with my math

Oops. That's not meant to be 10%.

[GrizzleBoy]

They are running big wings because they can't run the car as close to the ground as they want. The launch spec doesn't matter too much.

It was a fair question and there must have been some good (or misplaced) reasons around why they had such a wing at the launch itself. It is possible that the reference parameters were miscalculated (in the hindsight), which is possible when everyone was working in dark and had no clear idea of what the reference performance would be. For an organization like Mercedes, it's easy to know their drag levels and I don't think they are surprised with their own number, but the surprise for them would be to see the drag levels of others and where they stand in relation. I think it was similar on the engine performance.

When when you first launch the car I imagine you want as much downforce as you can get. Because removing it is far easier than adding it to balance the car.

If they could run the floor closer and not bounce, they would likely trim the wings a bit.

Did they even have any new wings to try before Sundays race?

The front wing has been the same since launch and they only just about brought a new rear wing in Saudi after 6 days testing, three practice sessions and running a whole race in Bahrain.

Also, designing the car to inherently have more downforce than it's capable of handling is not something any of the other top teams have done.

Then there's the question of why a team like Merc did not have the bahrain spec car on track on day one.

[NicoS]

I have noticed a lot less social media postings from AMG Mercedes Wo13 F1 team. especially on Twitter.
when they do post, there seems to be a lot less "cockiness" surrounding their postings.
why would that be? do they have a new social media poster? someone more down to earth? more cut to size?
It is very noticeable.

[InsaneX_Badger]

I have noticed a lot less social media postings from AMG Mercedes Wo13 F1 team. especially on Twitter.
when they do post, there seems to be a lot less "cockiness" surrounding their postings.
why would that be? do they have a new social media poster? someone more down to earth? more cut to size?
It is very noticeable.

More likely it's just the gloomy situation the team is in. Even if they sort the porpoising, they will still be behind the front two teams, maybe not so much in quali, but race for sure. Just not much to cheer about right now. It's a period of reflection and examination to find where they are and prepare themselves for next year.

[Mchamilton]

What I can't get my head around is why the merc launch car ALREADY had the steepest front and rear wing on the grid, if the problem has turned out to be an overabundance of drag?

Did they overestimate the power of their engine?

Did they underestimate the power of the other engines?

Basically, if drag is such a concern, why did the W13 leave the factory with hugemongous wings in the first place?

They are running big wings because they can't run the car as close to the ground as they want. The launch spec doesn't matter too much.

It had the huge wings on it before it ever touched the track

[JordanMugen]

They are running big wings because they can't run the car as close to the ground as they want.

But as Latios notes, are Mercedes perhaps trying to run their car closer to the ground than anyone else, thus exacerbating porpoising and being the root of their whole problem?

The Mercedes-Benz porpoising issue is very serious. I guess it's due to the very small sidepod. The airflow outside the small sidepod can reach the upper surface of the diffuser more smoothly, and the flow can pull the airflow inside the diffuser more effectively, so Mercedes can choose lower ground clearance (than traditional sidepods). When the ground clearance is small, the porpoising is more likely to happen. Once Mercedes-Benz solves the problem of porpoisinging, its performance may increase greatly. However, it seems that the Mercedes-Benz engine does not have an advantage this season too, maybe due to E10 fuel?

...The narrow sidepod allows the airflow above the diffuser to be stronger, then better to guide the airflow out of the diffuser. The expansion rate of the bottom of the car can be more significant without separation, so the ground clearance of the Mercedes-Benz vehicle is smaller, which is conducive to the downforce of the car. However, if the ground clearance is too small (smaller than design or faster than the speed allowed in wind tunnel), it will still separate in the diffuser, resulting in a sudden drop in downforce and causing porpoising.

Incredible analysis from Latios.

If it never occurred to Mercedes' engineers that they would never be able to actually run the car that low for real before they built it, as they didn't consider porpoising as a possibility for whatever reason, could that not explain the flaw in their whole design?

Just not much to cheer about right now. It's a period of reflection and examination to find where they are and prepare themselves for next year.

Going for P3 in the WCC is not that bad at all, it's comfortably top of the midfield.

[JPower]

Going for P3 in the WCC is not that bad at all, it's comfortably top of the midfield.

It's not, but it probably feels bad to a team that's won 8 straight WCC's. They work hard and expect excellence on and off track.

I also think they probably wanted to bounce back strong from last year's ending to help Lewis win his 8th which isn't looking in the cards as things sit at the moment.

[silver]

They are running big wings because they can't run the car as close to the ground as they want.

But as Latios notes, are Mercedes perhaps trying to run their car closer to the ground than anyone else, thus exacerbating porpoising and being the root of their whole problem?

The Mercedes-Benz porpoising issue is very serious. I guess it's due to the very small sidepod. The airflow outside the small sidepod can reach the upper surface of the diffuser more smoothly, and the flow can pull the airflow inside the diffuser more effectively, so Mercedes can choose lower ground clearance (than traditional sidepods). When the ground clearance is small, the porpoising is more likely to happen. Once Mercedes-Benz solves the problem of porpoisinging, its performance may increase greatly. However, it seems that the Mercedes-Benz engine does not have an advantage this season too, maybe due to E10 fuel?

...The narrow sidepod allows the airflow above the diffuser to be stronger, then better to guide the airflow out of the diffuser. The expansion rate of the bottom of the car can be more significant without separation, so the ground clearance of the Mercedes-Benz vehicle is smaller, which is conducive to the downforce of the car. However, if the ground clearance is too small (smaller than design or faster than the speed allowed in wind tunnel), it will still separate in the diffuser, resulting in a sudden drop in downforce and causing porpoising.

Incredible analysis from Latios.

If it never occurred to Mercedes' engineers that they would never be able to actually run the car that low for real before they built it, as they didn't consider porpoising as a possibility for whatever reason, could that not explain the flaw in their whole design?

Just not much to cheer about right now. It's a period of reflection and examination to find where they are and prepare themselves for next year.

Going for P3 in the WCC is not that bad at all, it's comfortably top of the midfield.

In their defense, the speeds at which porpoising becomes an effect, is not something the wind tunnel models are allowed to run at. They might have got completely off guard on this one.

[Vaexa]

I recall pretty much every team getting caught out by porpoising to at least some extent in Barcelona last month. It's hardly unique to Merc, though they do have it particularly bad.

[Tizz]

If they are not able to sort this out in time to join in the fight for the championship, it may very well become an undeserved ending to Lewis' career.