2022 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 01 - 03

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Sieper
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Re: 2022 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 01 - 03

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Shrieker wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 21:41
chrisc90 wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 20:28
Sainz should have got punished for nearly pushing Max into the pit wall at the initial restart aswell.
Max was never in danger of being put in the wall. There was comfortably more than a car's width there. Not even close.

You could make an argument for the white line, but then again, it means Perez should've been penalized too for cutting the track outside the white lines overtaking Leclerc, and then Max pushing Mick wide at the exit of brooklands, and then pinching to make him back off on the final corner.

Equal penalties for everyone please. Stewarding was abhorrently awful this race. George Russell to my knowledge didn't even get investigated for causing a pile up and nearly getting someone killed on the original start.
This is exactly right, on all situations you mentioned (and there were many more like these) so once you start being lenient you almost have no option but to continue being lenient. For the sake of fairness.

Personally I enjoy the leniency, but that is, until someone really abuses it. And the more lenient you are the earlier someone will.

This is the very hard part of F1, we want fair And equal ruling, but it also is a jury sport and some will get punished and others not. For similar things. But never totally equal.

What it comes down to is intent. But you can never make a hard case for that. Unless we have some kind of mind reader device. I think I can read intent from the actual maneuvering on track in some cases, but still, the heaviest discussions have been around just that.

So how to resolve that, I don’t know. Leave as is and accept a certain level of unfairness.

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Sieper
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Re: 2022 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 01 - 03

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marvin78 wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 21:19
No one asked for 10 cars. Sainz should cover Leclerc and be aware of the 10 car length. No one ever said, he should let 10 car lengths of space. That would be stupid.
I think they did mean that, indeed like Sosic explained to give Leclerc a bit more time to put heat in his white tires before the fight would commence. Not a bad idea but practically neigh on impossible for Sainz and also, not what FIA will like to hear. The 10 car is a limit, but you should follow closely.

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ringo
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Re: 2022 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 01 - 03

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chrisc90 wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 12:24


Would love to see Charles’ onboard for village.

Sainz is a very lucky man for forcing max off the track aswell. That was wayyy under a car width space
Perez is very kind to his teammate here. Two times he could have got in front both Sainz and Max. But he chose to back up into Charles to protect Max's lead.
For Sure!!

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Sieper
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Re: 2022 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 01 - 03

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ringo wrote:
05 Jul 2022, 00:11
chrisc90 wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 12:24


Would love to see Charles’ onboard for village.

Sainz is a very lucky man for forcing max off the track aswell. That was wayyy under a car width space
Perez is very kind to his teammate here. Two times he could have got in front both Sainz and Max. But he chose to back up into Charles to protect Max's lead.
Clearly. And this happened on other occasions as well. I think it is very clear this has been agreed up on. On the other hand, Max would also not do that to Checo.

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RZS10
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Re: 2022 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 01 - 03

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I did a quick search in this thread and to my surprise couldn't find too much discussion about the Safety Car.

Ultimately the big losers of this SC were
- Leclerc who lost three positions from what would most likely have been a win, depending on what
- Lewis could have done against either of the Ferraris, but he lost the chance to bring the fight to them with his tyre offset when he was massively gaining on Sainz prior to it being called
- Vettel who lost two positions and would safely have been P7 with decent gaps front and back
- Norris who swapped places with Alonso
- potentially Ricciardo who had way fresher tyres than STR and LAT and was gaining on them in big steps

The winners were
- Perez, who was more than one pit stop behind the front runners with still one stop to do which would have put him somewhere close to or behind Norris and Alonso, realistic that he would have overtaken both either way so he gained two positions
- Sainz who got a shot at winning his first race and took it
- Alonso who swapped with Norris and even got close to the frontrunners for a few moments

but ultimately the biggest winner was Verstappen, not only because instead of having to fight off Mick for 14 laps and potentially losing that position to finish 9th he could gain one position for 7th but also because instead of losing 23 points to Leclerc he only lost 6 - this however did partially make up for him picking up the damage in the race though and all things considered one could argue that it was a 13 point net gain for Charles anyways.

The decision to call the SC after yellows were shown only took them 10 odd seconds which was surprisingly quick, they seemingly did not even consider the VSC.
I always thought the whole idea of the VSC was to allow the marshalls to remove a car safely when no recovery vehicle is required, this was the case here, as the car being pushed was shown on the feed.

The mere fact that the race direction did not wait until the cars were all lined up behind the SC implies that they thought it was safe enough to do so under conditions which were no different to a VSC, as, to my knowledge, the SC and VSC delta times on the dash are the same, so with that in mind i looked at a full race replay and some footage from the live timing app.

Ocon stopped his car here
Image
And was brought here
Image
Image

Those were the positions when he stopped the car
Image
When the SC was called
Image
So Perez and Tsunoda were just about to get past the scene and technically did so under VSC conditions, the same was true for Norris, Alonso, Vettel, Verstappen, Schumacher, Magnussen, Stroll and Latifi.

Clearer image with those cars marked
Image

Leclerc was the first to be behind the SC, the others then pitted.

Leclerc behind the SC coming up to Copse, hard to tell whether Sainz, Hamilton and Ricciardo were already stacked up and just leaving large gaps or if they were still closing on the SC.
Image
This is how it looks like with them stacked behind the SC, so it's probably the latter.
Image
I would argue that it's just the two Ferraris which actually passed Ocon's car behind the SC.
Image
HAM, RIC, PER, TSU, NOR, ALO then definitely went past under VSC conditions depending on where they were when the car was already gone potentially also VER, MSC, MAG, LAT and STR.
The second screenshot in this post was roughly the moment where Leclerc then finished lap 40, so the next time they went past Copse the car was already gone.

The recovery took three minutes at most from what i could see in the footage.

So in summary: The call for a full SC (a decision which had a big impact on the race result and potentially the championships) was completely unnecessary as all cars apart from two went past the marshalls who were pushing the car under conditions identical to a VSC - i really do not understand why they did not call a VSC first to have the marshalls check whether they could engage neutral or whether they'd have to call a full SC the get out a recovery vehicle.

Why they made the call? It's anyone's guess but Liberty surely was happy with the late drama and action.

ab_f1
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Re: 2022 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 01 - 03

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chrisc90 wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 20:28
Sainz should have got punished for nearly pushing Max into the pit wall at the initial restart aswell.
"They're probably a bit more qualified than you or I. And have much better data/video to consider."

e30ernest
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Re: 2022 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 01 - 03

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RZS10 wrote:
05 Jul 2022, 00:26
I did a quick search in this thread and to my surprise couldn't find too much discussion about the Safety Car.

Ultimately the big losers of this SC were
- Leclerc who lost three positions from what would most likely have been a win, depending on what
- Lewis could have done against either of the Ferraris, but he lost the chance to bring the fight to them with his tyre offset when he was massively gaining on Sainz prior to it being called
- Vettel who lost two positions and would safely have been P7 with decent gaps front and back
- Norris who swapped places with Alonso
- potentially Ricciardo who had way fresher tyres than STR and LAT and was gaining on them in big steps

The winners were
- Perez, who was more than one pit stop behind the front runners with still one stop to do which would have put him somewhere close to or behind Norris and Alonso, realistic that he would have overtaken both either way so he gained two positions
- Sainz who got a shot at winning his first race and took it
- Alonso who swapped with Norris and even got close to the frontrunners for a few moments

but ultimately the biggest winner was Verstappen, not only because instead of having to fight off Mick for 14 laps and potentially losing that position to finish 9th he could gain one position for 7th but also because instead of losing 23 points to Leclerc he only lost 6 - this however did partially make up for him picking up the damage in the race though and all things considered one could argue that it was a 13 point net gain for Charles anyways.

The decision to call the SC after yellows were shown only took them 10 odd seconds which was surprisingly quick, they seemingly did not even consider the VSC.
I always thought the whole idea of the VSC was to allow the marshalls to remove a car safely when no recovery vehicle is required, this was the case here, as the car being pushed was shown on the feed.

The mere fact that the race direction did not wait until the cars were all lined up behind the SC implies that they thought it was safe enough to do so under conditions which were no different to a VSC, as, to my knowledge, the SC and VSC delta times on the dash are the same, so with that in mind i looked at a full race replay and some footage from the live timing app.

Ocon stopped his car here
https://i.imgur.com/OWfZr9a.png
And was brought here
https://i.imgur.com/L4D8lju.png
https://i.imgur.com/b0Ersym.png

Those were the positions when he stopped the car
https://i.imgur.com/TUGwABT.png
When the SC was called
https://i.imgur.com/NPMmGA9.png
So Perez and Tsunoda were just about to get past the scene and technically did so under VSC conditions, the same was true for Norris, Alonso, Vettel, Verstappen, Schumacher, Magnussen, Stroll and Latifi.

Clearer image with those cars marked
https://i.imgur.com/YKszTUp.png

Leclerc was the first to be behind the SC, the others then pitted.

Leclerc behind the SC coming up to Copse, hard to tell whether Sainz, Hamilton and Ricciardo were already stacked up and just leaving large gaps or if they were still closing on the SC.
https://i.imgur.com/5FypahO.png
This is how it looks like with them stacked behind the SC, so it's probably the latter.
https://i.imgur.com/OwmjUdl.png
I would argue that it's just the two Ferraris which actually passed Ocon's car behind the SC.
https://i.imgur.com/WgVZX9A.png
HAM, RIC, PER, TSU, NOR, ALO then definitely went past under VSC conditions depending on where they were when the car was already gone potentially also VER, MSC, MAG, LAT and STR.
The second screenshot in this post was roughly the moment where Leclerc then finished lap 40, so the next time they went past Copse the car was already gone.

The recovery took three minutes at most from what i could see in the footage.

So in summary: The call for a full SC (a decision which had a big impact on the race result and potentially the championships) was completely unnecessary as all cars apart from two went past the marshalls who were pushing the car under conditions identical to a VSC - i really do not understand why they did not call a VSC first to have the marshalls check whether they could engage neutral or whether they'd have to call a full SC the get out a recovery vehicle.

Why they made the call? It's anyone's guess but Liberty surely was happy with the late drama and action.
I think they went for the SC because the marshals would have needed to round that corner up with Ocon's car too. After already one big incident in the race, they probably wanted to play it safe too.

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peewon
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Re: 2022 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 01 - 03

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RZS10 wrote:
05 Jul 2022, 00:26
I did a quick search in this thread and to my surprise couldn't find too much discussion about the Safety Car.

Ultimately the big losers of this SC were
- Leclerc who lost three positions from what would most likely have been a win, depending on what
- Lewis could have done against either of the Ferraris, but he lost the chance to bring the fight to them with his tyre offset when he was massively gaining on Sainz prior to it being called
- Vettel who lost two positions and would safely have been P7 with decent gaps front and back
- Norris who swapped places with Alonso
- potentially Ricciardo who had way fresher tyres than STR and LAT and was gaining on them in big steps

The winners were
- Perez, who was more than one pit stop behind the front runners with still one stop to do which would have put him somewhere close to or behind Norris and Alonso, realistic that he would have overtaken both either way so he gained two positions
- Sainz who got a shot at winning his first race and took it
- Alonso who swapped with Norris and even got close to the frontrunners for a few moments

but ultimately the biggest winner was Verstappen, not only because instead of having to fight off Mick for 14 laps and potentially losing that position to finish 9th he could gain one position for 7th but also because instead of losing 23 points to Leclerc he only lost 6 - this however did partially make up for him picking up the damage in the race though and all things considered one could argue that it was a 13 point net gain for Charles anyways.

The decision to call the SC after yellows were shown only took them 10 odd seconds which was surprisingly quick, they seemingly did not even consider the VSC.
I always thought the whole idea of the VSC was to allow the marshalls to remove a car safely when no recovery vehicle is required, this was the case here, as the car being pushed was shown on the feed.

The mere fact that the race direction did not wait until the cars were all lined up behind the SC implies that they thought it was safe enough to do so under conditions which were no different to a VSC, as, to my knowledge, the SC and VSC delta times on the dash are the same, so with that in mind i looked at a full race replay and some footage from the live timing app.

Ocon stopped his car here
https://i.imgur.com/OWfZr9a.png
And was brought here
https://i.imgur.com/L4D8lju.png
https://i.imgur.com/b0Ersym.png

Those were the positions when he stopped the car
https://i.imgur.com/TUGwABT.png
When the SC was called
https://i.imgur.com/NPMmGA9.png
So Perez and Tsunoda were just about to get past the scene and technically did so under VSC conditions, the same was true for Norris, Alonso, Vettel, Verstappen, Schumacher, Magnussen, Stroll and Latifi.

Clearer image with those cars marked
https://i.imgur.com/YKszTUp.png

Leclerc was the first to be behind the SC, the others then pitted.

Leclerc behind the SC coming up to Copse, hard to tell whether Sainz, Hamilton and Ricciardo were already stacked up and just leaving large gaps or if they were still closing on the SC.
https://i.imgur.com/5FypahO.png
This is how it looks like with them stacked behind the SC, so it's probably the latter.
https://i.imgur.com/OwmjUdl.png
I would argue that it's just the two Ferraris which actually passed Ocon's car behind the SC.
https://i.imgur.com/WgVZX9A.png
HAM, RIC, PER, TSU, NOR, ALO then definitely went past under VSC conditions depending on where they were when the car was already gone potentially also VER, MSC, MAG, LAT and STR.
The second screenshot in this post was roughly the moment where Leclerc then finished lap 40, so the next time they went past Copse the car was already gone.

The recovery took three minutes at most from what i could see in the footage.

So in summary: The call for a full SC (a decision which had a big impact on the race result and potentially the championships) was completely unnecessary as all cars apart from two went past the marshalls who were pushing the car under conditions identical to a VSC - i really do not understand why they did not call a VSC first to have the marshalls check whether they could engage neutral or whether they'd have to call a full SC the get out a recovery vehicle.

Why they made the call? It's anyone's guess but Liberty surely was happy with the late drama and action.
I always thought the whole idea of the VSC was to allow the marshalls to remove a car safely when no recovery vehicle is required, this was the case here, as the car being pushed was shown on the feed.
Well, if this is the basis of the post, then thats incomplete. VSC is primarily for a situation where there is no car on track. Usually debris or when a car can be recovered without exposing the marshalls to any danger. Need of recovery vehicle on track is a 100% SC situation after the Bianchi incident but its not the only criteria by a long shot. As for the marshalls starting the recovery when the drivers were driving to a delta, it could simply be a case of Marshalls jumping the gun or being deemed safe as it was on a straight whereas they would have to go around a turn later. There really isnt enough information to make definitive statements.

As for winner and losers, many assertions being made here with the benefit of hindsight. Id also like to point out that Martin Brundle and David Croft immediately thought it would be a safety car because of the position of Ocon's car. They also thought it would play into Lewis' hands as he really wasn't closing in on the Ferrari's after the pit stop on the hards.

From lap 34, after Hamilton pitted to lap 39, the gap between them only increased from 5.9 to 6.1 secs. Ironically, this is almost the same situation as Abu Dhabi where the leader has to make a decision very quickly whether to risk giving up track position or not whereas the car behind simply does the opposite.

Alonso and Norris swapped around simply because Mclaren pitted a lap later for some reason.

https://en.mclarenf-1.com/2022/gp/s9018 ... s/833-482/

Important to not that no team or driver has questioned the decision to deploy the SC which tells me that not many people disagreed with that decision.

In short, SC has always had a dramatic impact on races. This isnt something new. But how teams respond to it can vary from situation to situation and from team to team. Just because it ends up benefiting some over others, it seems nefarious mainly because most people don't have insight into the various factors that go into making marshalling decisions. There is also a case for simple errors. Like a marshall or race director simply making a wrong decision due to pressure or bad information. Its not necessarily nefarious on contrived.

marvin78
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Re: 2022 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 01 - 03

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sosic2121 wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 21:34
marvin78 wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 21:19
No one asked for 10 cars. Sainz should cover Leclerc and be aware of the 10 car length. No one ever said, he should let 10 car lengths of space. That would be stupid.
Team asked him to increase the gap to Leclerc to give Leclerc a better chance to defend against pretty much everyone behind him.
He disobeyed.
That's what I said. They did not ask him to let 10 car lengths space between them. And Sainz explained, why that's stupid. That's what I do, if my boss asks something stupid from me. Part of my job. And Sainz did his.

michl420
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Re: 2022 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 01 - 03

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Schuttelberg wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 17:48
Can anyone explain how Norris just lost 1 position and why Leclerc like him didn't minimise the damage by pitting on the next lap? Is it to do with SC deltas and gaps?
Norris had so much room in front of him that he could drive the first SC lap almost complety with the same speed as Alonso, so there was a chance to keep the position. Leclerc must follow the SC much slower, he would lost the position at least against HAM and SAI. He would finished the race probably 3. So the result would me better with this stop.

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wogx
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Re: 2022 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 01 - 03

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Image
Image
Image

Championship rivalry on track, gentleman behaviour off track =D> =D> =D>
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Juzh
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Re: 2022 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 01 - 03

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michl420 wrote:
05 Jul 2022, 08:46
Leclerc must follow the SC much slower, he would lost the position at least against HAM and SAI. He would finished the race probably 3. So the result would me better with this stop.
If those two hadn't pitted they would jus be sitting ducks vs leclerc on new soft. In the end only thing that would happen is maybe hamilton jumps carlos trough pitstops due to ferrari double stack, but that's it. Still it would be ferrari 1-3 with the "right" driver winning it.

Prior to SC hamilton was never gonna pass leclerc. Hard tyre had a lot of durability and they were very evenly matched on pace. First he had to go trough sainz and that would cost more laptime against leclerc who was already more than 6s up the road. Then he has to catch and pass him on track - not happening.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2022 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 01 - 03

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Would love to know what they're discussing. If this is after the race, I can see Leclerc saying "they f**ked my race" and Max thinking "yeah, that would piss me off too, mate".
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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RZS10
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Re: 2022 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 01 - 03

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e30ernest wrote:
05 Jul 2022, 02:03
RZS10 wrote:
05 Jul 2022, 00:26
[...] all cars apart from two went past the marshalls who were pushing the car under conditions identical to a VSC [...]
I think they went for the SC because the marshals would have needed to round that corner up with Ocon's car too. After already one big incident in the race, they probably wanted to play it safe too.
peewon wrote:
05 Jul 2022, 03:47
Well, if this is the basis of the post, [...] VSC is primarily for a situation where [...] a car can be recovered without exposing the marshalls to any danger. [...] As for the marshalls starting the recovery when the drivers were driving to a delta, it could simply be a case of Marshalls jumping the gun or being deemed safe as it was on a straight whereas they would have to go around a turn later. There really isnt enough information to make definitive statements.
One could additionally check onboards to see when they were pushing the car and who actually passed them but i doubt this was done without any communication and them getting the go ahead, so if they were truly concerned about the safety they probably should/would have waited 2 laps until they were all stacked up, although i can see how one factor for SC vs. VSC might be whether the car was on track or not, then it would just be a formality of course.

edit:
In Jeddah there was a car on track and it was recovered under VSC.
In Miami they called the VSC within 10s for Norris' car which was on three wheels on a fast part of the track, they then probably realized they would not be able to push it and called the full SC 1:37min later.
In Baku Magnussen stopped at the end of a fast section on track and the car was recovered under VSC.

So the positioning of the car on/off track does not seem to be a binary factor afterall.

Even in Monaco with a car split in half they went through the VSC and then to a full SC whereas they instantly went to SC here.


I wasn't implying that Liberty wanted that to happen or that there was anything nefarious going on, i really did not want to speculate as there is no info available as to how they make those decisions - fact is that Liberty were 100% happy with it though.

Ultimately the entire point of that lengthy post is that the recovery happened under VSC conditions anyways - in retrospect there would have been no practical difference between a VSC and SC in this case - ergo they could just as well have called a VSC (internal guidelines allowing).
Last edited by RZS10 on 05 Jul 2022, 11:58, edited 3 times in total.

silver
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Re: 2022 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 01 - 03

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ringo wrote:
05 Jul 2022, 00:11
chrisc90 wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 12:24


Would love to see Charles’ onboard for village.

Sainz is a very lucky man for forcing max off the track aswell. That was wayyy under a car width space
Perez is very kind to his teammate here. Two times he could have got in front both Sainz and Max. But he chose to back up into Charles to protect Max's lead.
Perez was quite fiesty in that battle with Hamilton and Leclerc. In such situations, Bottas in Mercedes used to be an easy meat.