2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

[mzso]

I really hope they won't delay the anti-porpoising measures any longer.
Their quota of making fools of themselves is already filled by the Perez qualifying snafu.

[Chuckjr]

Outstanding visual example of Bernoulli’s principal.

[Tommy Cookers]

the term 'porpoising' seems to have been invented in 1979 by Mario Andretti as when testing the Lotus 80 ....
he could see daylight under the front wheels while driving on a straight .... (wrote Peter Wright)

P W seemed to say Lotus tried to eliminate the effects of pitch on DF distribution (& minimised pitch on the 72) but .....
in designing ground-effect cars ie 77 78 79 and 80 progressively increased DF distribution with pitch .... because ....
the drivers liked it and the cars lapped quicker ....
if I read it correctly

[codetower]

I haven't seen any drivers complain about the porpoising since the TD was announced. They were complaining about back problems, talking about the long term effects, but since the directive was announced I haven't heard anything. Have the teams already found solutions? Is there still a need for the TD?

[Just_a_fan]

I haven't seen any drivers complain about the porpoising since the TD was announced. They were complaining about back problems, talking about the long term effects, but since the directive was announced I haven't heard anything. Have the teams already found solutions? Is there still a need for the TD?

Yes, there is a need. Some teams have worked hard to solve the problem, other didn't have the problem because they might have done naughty things in their initial designs. If someone works hard to solve a problem within the rules, they should prosper compared to someone that solved the problems outwith the rules.

Edit: and to the person that keeps downvoting me with "unfounded cheating allegations", if the FIA thought every team was within the rules, the TD relating to flexing of the floor wouldn't be needed. They are introducing this change precisely because their is a suggestion that one or more teams are not in compliance with the rules

[JordanMugen]

Given how many times the FIA has tried to stop floors being used as sealed skirts it's really rather weird that the regs this year pretty much encourage and allow it right as we go back to tunnels, which is the reason they banned skirts to start with...

Oh well, it is going to change anyway. "They take the step plane out, they put the step plane back, they shake it all about."

@Fulloppositelock:

The FIA has also outlined, following input from the teams, changes to the technical regulations for 2023.

These are a 25mm raising of the floor edges, a raising of the underfloor diffuser throat, the introduction of more stringent lateral floor deflection tests and the use of a more accurate sensor to quantify aerodynamic oscillation.

All the above measures are to be submitted urgently to the FIA’s World Motor Sport Council for ratification, so teams can get to work on revised 2023 designs.

What kind of downforce loss will this cause? I imagine it would be significant, which is why the rulemakers got rid of the step plane for these venturi tunnel rules in the first place?

Raising the diffuser throat height is another sensible measure to stop teams pursuing overly ride-height-sensitive tunnel geometries.

[Sevach]

I wonder if rake will make a comeback with these proposed rules.

[mzso]

Given how many times the FIA has tried to stop floors being used as sealed skirts it's really rather weird that the regs this year pretty much encourage and allow it right as we go back to tunnels, which is the reason they banned skirts to start with...

Oh well, it is going to change anyway. "They take the step plane out, they put the step plane back, they shake it all about."

@Fulloppositelock:

The FIA has also outlined, following input from the teams, changes to the technical regulations for 2023.

These are a 25mm raising of the floor edges, a raising of the underfloor diffuser throat, the introduction of more stringent lateral floor deflection tests and the use of a more accurate sensor to quantify aerodynamic oscillation.

All the above measures are to be submitted urgently to the FIA’s World Motor Sport Council for ratification, so teams can get to work on revised 2023 designs.

What kind of downforce loss will this cause? I imagine it would be significant, which is why the rulemakers got rid of the step plane for these venturi tunnel rules in the first place?

Raising the diffuser throat height is another sensible measure to stop teams pursuing overly ride-height-sensitive tunnel geometries.

Wonder why did they got rid of the step plane in the first place, seems really foolish. Actually I thought the sidewalls had to be higher until I saw the Kyle video. When Byrne/Head made their proposal for the 2013 regulations, they also mentioned that the sidewalls are to be higher. (But of course the teams immediately vetoed the proposal, so we get the Mercedes dominant era...) Apparently the F1 taskforce lead by Brawn/Fry forgot about the problems the floors sealing to the ground creates...

Is there a point in raising the diffuser throat when the step plane is already re-introduced? Going fully down to the sidewalls edge would just result in a lot of air being leaked to the side, wouldn't it?

By the way what is "@Fulloppositelock" as the source of the quote supposed to be?

[godlameroso]

Given how many times the FIA has tried to stop floors being used as sealed skirts it's really rather weird that the regs this year pretty much encourage and allow it right as we go back to tunnels, which is the reason they banned skirts to start with...

Oh well, it is going to change anyway. "They take the step plane out, they put the step plane back, they shake it all about."

@Fulloppositelock:

The FIA has also outlined, following input from the teams, changes to the technical regulations for 2023.

These are a 25mm raising of the floor edges, a raising of the underfloor diffuser throat, the introduction of more stringent lateral floor deflection tests and the use of a more accurate sensor to quantify aerodynamic oscillation.

All the above measures are to be submitted urgently to the FIA’s World Motor Sport Council for ratification, so teams can get to work on revised 2023 designs.

What kind of downforce loss will this cause? I imagine it would be significant, which is why the rulemakers got rid of the step plane for these venturi tunnel rules in the first place?

Raising the diffuser throat height is another sensible measure to stop teams pursuing overly ride-height-sensitive tunnel geometries.

Cars still have a step plane, in fact that central section has a huge influence in airflow. The central section is a bluff body.

[mendis]

Ferrari seems to be leading the charge in stopping floor rule changes.

[LM10]

Ferrari seems to be leading the charge in stopping floor rule changes.

Well, no surprise all teams except the Mercedes powered ones (while there are rumors of even Williams being in that boat) are against the changes. We’re far into the season and the teams are already far into the development of their cars for next year. Such a radical change at this stage for “safety reasons” even though porpoising is under control by all teams already, seems just odd.
Even odder considering that the changes would most probably benefit Mercedes and as it seems only Mercedes. Not sure about McLaren, though. They could simply be behind their PU manufacturer or they’re genuinely for the 2023 rule changes because of having failed to build a proper 2022 car as well.

[Andi76]

I haven't seen any drivers complain about the porpoising since the TD was announced. They were complaining about back problems, talking about the long term effects, but since the directive was announced I haven't heard anything. Have the teams already found solutions? Is there still a need for the TD?

Yes, there is a need. Some teams have worked hard to solve the problem, other didn't have the problem because they might have done naughty things in their initial designs. If someone works hard to solve a problem within the rules, they should prosper compared to someone that solved the problems outwith the rules.

Edit: and to the person that keeps downvoting me with "unfounded cheating allegations", if the FIA thought every team was within the rules, the TD relating to flexing of the floor wouldn't be needed. They are introducing this change precisely because their is a suggestion that one or more teams are not in compliance with the rules

Not they do not introduce this change because one or two teams are not in compliance with the rules. All teams are in compliance with the rules like they are right now in relation to that. Otherwise they would not be allowed to race their cars. They FIAs intention only was different in regards to the intepretation of this law and now they want to correct this. But that has norhing to do with one team cheating and another one is not. If it would be cheating certain teams would not be allowed to race their "illegal" cars. But they are as it is a different Interpretation of a rule only. And thats F1 and a pretty normal thing in F1. A new TD does only introduces a new technical regulation. Nothing else. Sometimes because the rulemakers did intend the rule to be interpreted like that, sometimes out of political reasons, safety reasons and sometimes because of everything together or something else. And thats it. But its not about cheating or not.

If you read the rule in relation to that you can clearly see that even the teams who you accuse "to cheat", completely comply with the rule like it is right now. Their floors do not flex more than it is allowed to where the rule says it. It flexes more somewhere else and there is no rule that says it is not allowed to it there. So when someone downvotes you because of "unfounded cheating allegations", he is totally right with that. Sorry to say this - but thats a fact.

[Just_a_fan]

If you read the rule in relation to that you can clearly see that even the teams who you accuse "to cheat", completely comply with the rule like it is right now. Their floors do not flex more than it is allowed to where the rule says it. It flexes more somewhere else and there is no rule that says it is not allowed to it there. So when someone downvotes you because of "unfounded cheating allegations", he is totally right with that. Sorry to say this - but thats a fact.

They don't comply with the rule, they comply with the current metric - the way that deformation is tested. It's exactly the same as the drooping wings from the V8 days - the wings met the test but obviously didn't meet the rule. So the test was changed to reinforce compliance with the rule.

Just because you don't get seen by a policeman, doesn't mean you aren't breaking the law when exceeding the speed limit.

[Stu]

Or the regulation that no part of the car other than the tyres can be designed with the intention of running in contact with the ground. Some teams floor have so much flex in the floor edges that you would struggle to prove that it is accidental, particularly when you consider the level at which they are able to model forces and model/design the component strength required to withstand the forces produced.

[Andi76]

If you read the rule in relation to that you can clearly see that even the teams who you accuse "to cheat", completely comply with the rule like it is right now. Their floors do not flex more than it is allowed to where the rule says it. It flexes more somewhere else and there is no rule that says it is not allowed to it there. So when someone downvotes you because of "unfounded cheating allegations", he is totally right with that. Sorry to say this - but thats a fact.

They don't comply with the rule, they comply with the current metric - the way that deformation is tested. It's exactly the same as the drooping wings from the V8 days - the wings met the test but obviously didn't meet the rule. So the test was changed to reinforce compliance with the rule.

Just because you don't get seen by a policeman, doesn't mean you aren't breaking the law when exceeding the speed limit.

Sorry, but i think even discussing this is not worth any time - the rules say that the floor is not allowed to flex more than 2mm and this gets controlled at 2 points. If it flexes somewhere else - they comply with the rule, because you can easily interpret it that the floor is not allowed to flex in this specific area only. Its like saying there is a speed limit and it gets controlled from one point to another. Of course you can understand or interpret this as the speed limit is only in a specific area. And this is F1 - F1 is about finding exactly loopholes like that and it is even stupid not to exploit it. So - you can turn it however you want - its not cheating at all. If thats cheating, DAS was cheating, flexi-wings are cheating, a suspension that lowers the rear is cheating, double-diffusers were cheating, as were a lot of F1 technical innovations. The mistake is with the regulation not with the teams exploiting it. And finally - no car that does not comply with the rules AT ANY TIME - is not allowed to race. So sorry - i say it again - if people downvote you for "unfounded cheating allegations", they are obviously right.