FIA failed again?

[Quantum]

In the end, Red Bull and Max won WDC with Honda power so it's all good.

Even if flexing wings were illegal and DAS was actually legit....So long as RB/Max/Honda wins it's all good?

[DChemTech]

Why does a new thread of this type pop up after every race? can't we just keep using the old ones?

I think we all had some hope things would be closer, sure. But, mistakes were made by the FIA that led to the current status-quo. Biggest mistake: announcing the new philosophy (most of it anyway) before the cost-cap was in place so that the initial design work could be done before the playing field was leveled. Other than that, it will always be the case with new regs that some teams try something interesting that works, and others try something interesting that fails - leading to a relatively spread-out field initially. In that sense, new regs will not lead to a closer field, but they might scramble the order of competition (especially if the playing field is level from the get-go). They keyword of course is might - it might as well be that the leading teams still lead afterwards (especially when resources do matter).

But let's look at the bright sides. What did work:
- There is competition at the front (between 2 teams, but at least there's no 1-team runaway as Mercedes 2014)
- There is competition in the midfield (all teams have points already!), and there has been some scrambling there (HAAS moving forward, Mercedes sort of being midfield sometimes now)
- Cars can clearly follow more closely (See Lec/Ver this weekend)

And with a bit of luck, things go upward from there.

[Sieper]

of course they will. Mercedes is already creeping closer to the top and with a few years with these simpler aero rules they will converge. The whole midfield is extremely close and if they too creep up to the top it will be extremely tense. Then Traffic and good/bad pitstops will decide races. I am not even sure if that is an improvement.

[DChemTech]

DAS was deemed illegal wasn't it,

No, it wasn't. The rules were subsequently rewritten to specifically prevent it being done again precisely because it wasn't illegal according to the rules in force at the time.

And there we go again... same for the 'flexing' wings (as materialized in 2021); the rules were rewritten to specifically prevent it being done again precisely because it wasn't illegal according to the (quantitative) rules in force at the time. Difference is that in case of DAS they did it between seasons (fine), in case of wings they did it mid-season (not fine).

[Just_a_fan]

DAS was deemed illegal wasn't it,

No, it wasn't. The rules were subsequently rewritten to specifically prevent it being done again precisely because it wasn't illegal according to the rules in force at the time.

And there we go again... same for the 'flexing' wings (as materialized in 2021); the rules were rewritten to specifically prevent it being done again precisely because it wasn't illegal according to the (quantitative) rules in force at the time. Difference is that in case of DAS they did it between seasons (fine), in case of wings they did it mid-season (not fine).

No, flexible wings were always illegal but the teams gamed the tests. So the tests were altered to capture more data points to check compliance. Just as is happening with the alleged flexi-floors.

DAS was always legal.

[DChemTech]

No, it wasn't. The rules were subsequently rewritten to specifically prevent it being done again precisely because it wasn't illegal according to the rules in force at the time.

And there we go again... same for the 'flexing' wings (as materialized in 2021); the rules were rewritten to specifically prevent it being done again precisely because it wasn't illegal according to the (quantitative) rules in force at the time. Difference is that in case of DAS they did it between seasons (fine), in case of wings they did it mid-season (not fine).

No, flexible wings were always illegal but the teams gamed the tests. So the tests were altered to capture more data points to check compliance. Just as is happening with the alleged flexi-floors.

DAS was always legal.

And then, as discussed ad nauseam in the dedicated thread, all wings are illegal because every material flexes. Without providing tolerances, the rule 'wings cannot flex' is void. The only tolerances that were provided were those contained in the tests, which were passed by the teams, hence the wings were legal. When the tests changed, the tolerances changed, hence the rules changed, which in my view is competition falsification if it happens in the season. And the same applies for the alleged flexi-floors.

[chrisc90]

I know it’s a bit of a old one, but did anything ever get mentioned about the main wing on the merc flexing last year under the DRS flap?

I only joined between seasons so missed everything from last year on discussions

I know there was footage of it moving quite a bit

[Just_a_fan]

And there we go again... same for the 'flexing' wings (as materialized in 2021); the rules were rewritten to specifically prevent it being done again precisely because it wasn't illegal according to the (quantitative) rules in force at the time. Difference is that in case of DAS they did it between seasons (fine), in case of wings they did it mid-season (not fine).

No, flexible wings were always illegal but the teams gamed the tests. So the tests were altered to capture more data points to check compliance. Just as is happening with the alleged flexi-floors.

DAS was always legal.

And then, as discussed ad nauseam in the dedicated thread, all wings are illegal because every material flexes. Without providing tolerances, the rule 'wings cannot flex' is void. The only tolerances that were provided were those contained in the tests, which were passed by the teams, hence the wings were legal. When the tests changed, the tolerances changed, hence the rules changed, which in my view is competition falsification if it happens in the season. And the same applies for the alleged flexi-floors.

The floors have a defined allowance and an initial set of test locations. If the floor flexes elsewhere from those test locations, it's an illegal floor.

If you want a falsification of competition, I give you the removal of qualifying maps - done specifically to help Red Bull compete with Ferrari and Mercedes.

[Just_a_fan]

I know it’s a bit of a old one, but did anything ever get mentioned about the main wing on the merc flexing last year under the DRS flap?

I only joined between seasons so missed everything from last year on discussions

I know there was footage of it moving quite a bit

It was discussed here at length and shown to be made up rubbish. Lots of analysis with lines on videos showing no movement, that sort of thing.

[chrisc90]

I know it’s a bit of a old one, but did anything ever get mentioned about the main wing on the merc flexing last year under the DRS flap?

I only joined between seasons so missed everything from last year on discussions

I know there was footage of it moving quite a bit

It was discussed here at length and shown to be made up rubbish. Lots of analysis with lines on videos showing no movement, that sort of thing.

You don’t know where it was do you? Be a interesting read for sure.

[Sieper]

Chris, go back in the W12 thread. All the pictures are there. Especially around Brazil race time.

[chrisc90]

Chris, go back in the W12 thread. All the pictures are there. Especially around Brazil race time.

Cheers, I’ll have a look for it.

[DChemTech]

No, flexible wings were always illegal but the teams gamed the tests. So the tests were altered to capture more data points to check compliance. Just as is happening with the alleged flexi-floors.

DAS was always legal.

And then, as discussed ad nauseam in the dedicated thread, all wings are illegal because every material flexes. Without providing tolerances, the rule 'wings cannot flex' is void. The only tolerances that were provided were those contained in the tests, which were passed by the teams, hence the wings were legal. When the tests changed, the tolerances changed, hence the rules changed, which in my view is competition falsification if it happens in the season. And the same applies for the alleged flexi-floors.

The floors have a defined allowance and an initial set of test locations. If the floor flexes elsewhere from those test locations, it's an illegal floor.

If you want a falsification of competition, I give you the removal of qualifying maps - done specifically to help Red Bull compete with Ferrari and Mercedes.

Then you need to specify tolerances for those other locations, because it will flex there. That was not done, so it cannot be judged as illegal according to the rules as were provided.
And I agree, the removal of quali-maps was also competition falsification.

[Sieper]

And when did that finally happen after years of having those. Right when Honda also started to get one. It in fact was postponed a few races on request of Honda. But yes, those things need to happen in between seasons. If at all just.

[Just_a_fan]

And then, as discussed ad nauseam in the dedicated thread, all wings are illegal because every material flexes. Without providing tolerances, the rule 'wings cannot flex' is void. The only tolerances that were provided were those contained in the tests, which were passed by the teams, hence the wings were legal. When the tests changed, the tolerances changed, hence the rules changed, which in my view is competition falsification if it happens in the season. And the same applies for the alleged flexi-floors.

The floors have a defined allowance and an initial set of test locations. If the floor flexes elsewhere from those test locations, it's an illegal floor.

If you want a falsification of competition, I give you the removal of qualifying maps - done specifically to help Red Bull compete with Ferrari and Mercedes.

Then you need to specify tolerances for those other locations, because it will flex there. That was not done, so it cannot be judged as illegal according to the rules as were provided.
And I agree, the removal of quali-maps was also competition falsification.

No, the requirement is that the plank may not move by more than 2mm. That's the requirement. It doesn't matter if it's measured at position A or position X, nor does it matter if it's not measured at all - it's not allowed to flex more than a certain amount.

It's the same as a speed limit on the road - if you exceed the limit then you are acting illegally. It doesn't matter whether a policeman catches you - your actions are illegal as soon as you carry them out.