Sustainable fuels for 2026. V10's will be green!

[PlatinumZealot]

I think "longer" conbustion has been successful but not at these loads and rpms.

[vorticism]

Judd V10 in a Supra:

[Edax]

The FIA got into the business of aesthetics the past few seasons. The question then becomes where to draw the line: at visual? Or also audible?

The V10 was of course an accident in some sense; it arose iirc out of mandating NA engines and swept volume in the 90s, which led directly to high RPM multi-cylinder arrangements. Whether the FIA intended it or not, they would go on to produce the sound which came to define F1.

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It is funny. I am probably a bit older than you, but if you ask me then V10’s are definitely not
the sound that defines F1.

That would be the BMW, Renault and Honda turbo’s. Mind you that is the time where you would write “turbo” on your bike to make it go fast, or “laser” (whatever that may be). In anyway the V10 was a huge step back, and a sure sign that F1 was on its way to make itself obsolete by clinging on to archaic technology.

Goes to show. Chancing the sound you can never do it right, but in hindsight it always was the best. So it should not be a consideration.

[vorticism]

It is funny. I am probably a bit older than you, but if you ask me then V10’s are definitely not
the sound that defines F1.

That would be the BMW, Renault and Honda turbo’s. Mind you that is the time where you would write “turbo” on your bike to make it go fast, or “laser” (whatever that may be). In anyway the V10 was a huge step back, and a sure sign that F1 was on its way to make itself obsolete by clinging on to archaic technology.

Goes to show. Chancing the sound you can never do it right, but in hindsight it always was the best. So it should not be a consideration.

Perhaps poor wording on my part; what defines vs what is more astounding or evocative. Even some turbo fans appreciate the V10/12 sound, though. For ~50 years cumulative (?) of F1's run it was the sound of high strung NA engines. The general public associates a high pitch sound with F1 and top shelf European motorsports in general IMO.

[Just_a_fan]

It is funny. I am probably a bit older than you, but if you ask me then V10’s are definitely not
the sound that defines F1.

That would be the BMW, Renault and Honda turbo’s. Mind you that is the time where you would write “turbo” on your bike to make it go fast, or “laser” (whatever that may be). In anyway the V10 was a huge step back, and a sure sign that F1 was on its way to make itself obsolete by clinging on to archaic technology.

Goes to show. Chancing the sound you can never do it right, but in hindsight it always was the best. So it should not be a consideration.

Perhaps poor wording on my part; what defines vs what is more astounding or evocative. Even some turbo fans appreciate the V10/12 sound, though. For ~50 years cumulative (?) of F1's run it was the sound of high strung NA engines. The general public associates a high pitch sound with F1 and top shelf European motorsports in general IMO.

The high pitched sound is a relic of a brief period in F1 where revs went through the roof in order to make power available. For the vast majority of F1's history, the high pitched scream of the V10 was not heard.

The classic F1 engine is the DFV - an engine used by many teams and which won 10 constructors' titles, 12 drivers' titles and 2 Le Mans. Modified for use in the USA, it won 10 Indy 500 races. I don't think, live, its a particularly nice sound at all. It's just very loud - because it's short pipes straight from the exhaust ports - not a high pitched sound at all. Sounds better on TV, of course.

Indeed, for much of F1's history, it's was 4, 6, 8 and 12 cylinders. 10 cylinders is but a short chapter in a long book and in no way is the definitive F1 configuration / sound.

[vorticism]

Brief in the sense of 24 years. Then prior to the first turbo era there was a mix of NA and forced induction spanning thirty years. The earlier NA engines of course were lower RPM, with DFVs and various V12s redlining at 8-12k RPM although these still produced a higher frequency exhaust note than current and historic turbo V6s, and would have contrasted significantly to the compressed engines of their era.

[NL_Fer]

Honestly the 80s turbo pops and bangs were crazy, but they have been heard in other racing cars also in the periode afterwards. But the high revving V8-V10 has never been reproduced outside F1. It is pretty unique and combined with the reverberation around the track, really insane. I miss that allot.

[Just_a_fan]

Brief in the sense of 24 years. Then prior to the first turbo era there was a mix of NA and forced induction spanning thirty years. The earlier NA engines of course were lower RPM, with DFVs and various V12s redlining at 8-12k RPM although these still produced a higher frequency exhaust note than current and historic turbo V6s, and would have contrasted significantly to the compressed engines of their era.

They were exclusive for a much shorter period than 24 years. And they competed against V8 and V12 engines.

The V8 and V12 are just as iconic for anyone with more than a brief / passing interest in F1.

[TimW]

Even the low range road cars have gone through enormous change in combustion efficiency to give higher throughout for lowering fuel intake....

no
what you are all talking about isn't combustion efficiency

CE is just what % of fuel eg 95% is burned in the combustion chamber - that hasn't really been changed

what systems like TJI enable is satisfactory combustion of leaner mixtures than would be possible otherwise
plus F1 architecture (presumably) can have some post-cylinder combustion upstream the turbine

Maybe good to point out that he was referring to thermal efficiency, work/heat input, which had improved quite a bit for road cars.

[Edax]

Honestly the 80s turbo pops and bangs were crazy, but they have been heard in other racing cars also in the periode afterwards. But the high revving V8-V10 has never been reproduced outside F1. It is pretty unique and combined with the reverberation around the track, really insane. I miss that allot.

Yeah I can understand where you’re coming from. But I guess that is the same for some of the older series. These really had some unique sounds that were never reproduced in another racing series.

I particularly liked the sound of the Can Ams with the big velocity stacks.


And of course the turbo era with the F1, group B and Group C. With the C11 as apex predator.


And yes the v10s did have their unique charm, especially when they went to high revs.


But you know what. The thing I am going to miss the most is from that period is the medical car.


But i think we should not focus on sound otherwise I fear we end up with something like this.

[vorticism]

Brief in the sense of 24 years. Then prior to the first turbo era there was a mix of NA and forced induction spanning thirty years. The earlier NA engines of course were lower RPM, with DFVs and various V12s redlining at 8-12k RPM although these still produced a higher frequency exhaust note than current and historic turbo V6s, and would have contrasted significantly to the compressed engines of their era.

They were exclusive for a much shorter period than 24 years. And they competed against V8 and V12 engines. The V8 and V12 are just as iconic for anyone with more than a brief / passing interest in F1.

No, the period lasted over two decades. 25 years actually; I wrote 24 in error. You wrote:

The high pitched sound is a relic of a brief period in F1 where revs went through the roof in order to make power available.

Which is what I replied to. 25 years is not exactly brief. You seem to be making a point specifically about the V10 arrangement/sound, although the peak exhaust Hz were roughly similar among the 12s, 10s, and 8s.

1989:


2013:

[Just_a_fan]

Brief in the sense of 24 years. Then prior to the first turbo era there was a mix of NA and forced induction spanning thirty years. The earlier NA engines of course were lower RPM, with DFVs and various V12s redlining at 8-12k RPM although these still produced a higher frequency exhaust note than current and historic turbo V6s, and would have contrasted significantly to the compressed engines of their era.

They were exclusive for a much shorter period than 24 years. And they competed against V8 and V12 engines. The V8 and V12 are just as iconic for anyone with more than a brief / passing interest in F1.

No, the period lasted over two decades. 25 years actually; I wrote 24 in error. You wrote:

The high pitched sound is a relic of a brief period in F1 where revs went through the roof in order to make power available.

Which is what I replied to. 25 years is not exactly brief. You seem to be making a point specifically about the V10 arrangement/sound, although the peak exhaust Hz were roughly similar among the 12s, 10s, and 8s.

1989:


2013:

Exactly. The noise that people associate with V10s was also created by V8 and V12 engines.

So the idea that "V10 is the definitive sound of F1" is total BS.

Engines running decent revs made the sound of F1 for a good period. V10s were just a part of that.

Thanks for confirming.

[vorticism]

So the idea that "V10 is the definitive sound of F1" is total BS.

Jousting windmills. My posts above can be quoted directly. Don't let the thread title confuse you.

[PlatinumZealot]

The V10's were the best sound of F1 imo. V12 just about there too.
The V8 exhaust blown diffuser was aurally interesting.

[Just_a_fan]

The V10's were the best sound of F1 imo. V12 just about there too.
The V8 exhaust blown diffuser was aurally interesting.

I doubt many people could really tell the difference between a V12 and V10 F1 engine. Both had a high pitch and both were painfully loud when heard trackside. And many probably wouldn't know the Ford V8 in Michael's Benetton from the Renault V10 in Hill's Williams. Or between the Honda V12 in Senna's MP4/7A and the Renault V10 in Mansell's FW14B.

All great engines and all equally iconic because, between them, they all defined the sound of a period in F1 that many, now middle-aged, fans first tasted the sport.