A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
It is just a mock up for the looks , flow doesn't even move in that direction properly at that point of the car. The channel is not credible
It's very brave, especially where Formula 1 is concerned, to say where the air flows and how it doesn't. In fact, Willem Toet, long-time chief aerodynamicist of teams like Benetton, Ferrari, BAR, BMW and Sauber said just a few days ago in a public lecture at the University of Bolton (available on youtube) that it is complete nonsense what is constantly said, namely that F1 teams try to seal the underbody completely. That's not what F1 teams do, not at all. Lateral expansion is actually something that is used to create more downforce. So what this space engineer is saying actually makes a lot of sense and is exactly in line with what an F1 aerodynamicist with 40 years of experience in this field is saying.
Andi, please send me the link from Willem Toet here or on sime973@gmail.com
Thank you
"Wait, how did people get to think about "sealing" as actual sealing?" We are not aero experts
All credits go to You and Andi76, for further elaboration of the "sealing".
Thank you very much
To be honest, what surprised me is Toet mentioning this on a lecture in UK University with strong motorsport connections... We are practically all F1-aero amateurs and enthusiasts here, but University is another thing.
Managing to stay awake I saw Kyle's comment about the extra cooling louvres, is that because there will be more cooling required from the higher electrical power this year?
There's no more electrical power this year than last year
Managing to stay awake I saw Kyle's comment about the extra cooling louvres, is that because there will be more cooling required from the higher electrical power this year?
There's no more electrical power this year than last year
Managing to stay awake I saw Kyle's comment about the extra cooling louvres, is that because there will be more cooling required from the higher electrical power this year?
There's no more electrical power this year than last year
It's very brave, especially where Formula 1 is concerned, to say where the air flows and how it doesn't. In fact, Willem Toet, long-time chief aerodynamicist of teams like Benetton, Ferrari, BAR, BMW and Sauber said just a few days ago in a public lecture at the University of Bolton (available on youtube) that it is complete nonsense what is constantly said, namely that F1 teams try to seal the underbody completely. That's not what F1 teams do, not at all. Lateral expansion is actually something that is used to create more downforce. So what this space engineer is saying actually makes a lot of sense and is exactly in line with what an F1 aerodynamicist with 40 years of experience in this field is saying.
Wait, how did people get to think about "sealing" as actual sealing? I always understood the term came from desire to seal the air (which is usually dirty front tyre wake) from getting in, not literally seal any lateral flow.
When we talk about sealing and strong vortices, we talk about structures that speed-up the airflow in front of edges. Stronger vortices bring the pressure further down, that's what the idea is.
The notion of sealing is a relic or artifact of the era of 70’s and 80’s ground effects with skirts most probably.
Interestingly, Frank Dernie has mentioned that the only time they had issues with porpoising with the skirted Williams cars of that era was when the skirts were found to not be sealing properly.
Besides the floor edge, what I notice at first glance is that, compared to the renderings, the physical car has narrower sidepods (see their profile on the floor) and also their air intakes seem to go less to the sides, to be more frontal.
The FW endplate is different too.
Besides the floor edge, what I notice at first glance is that, compared to the renderings, the physical car has narrower sidepods (see their profile on the floor) and also their air intakes seem to go less to the sides, to be more frontal.
The FW endplate is different too.
The physical model is just a (re-hashed, probably) display model. In fact, it has pull-rod suspension at the back versus push-rod on the virtual model of the real car.
The display is in fact available for purchase at auction.
Besides the floor edge, what I notice at first glance is that, compared to the renderings, the physical car has narrower sidepods (see their profile on the floor) and also their air intakes seem to go less to the sides, to be more frontal.
The FW endplate is different too.
The physical model is just a (re-hashed, probably) display model. In fact, it has pull-rod suspension at the back versus push-rod on the virtual model of the real car.
The display is in fact available for purchase at auction.
Yes it's the purchasable FOM showcar that teams can buy as is, or customize to make it look like the real F1 car, like Alfa already did in 2022...
So it's not the real thing. It's a rough replica.
But is the 3d render the real thing?
I used to have faith in those CGI renders because in the last 10 seasons, most teams used to launch very representative renders of their real car (albeit a bit simplified and not up to date of course)... but after what Haas did in 2022, one should be more careful : P
Rear suspensions look similar but it seems the top wishbone and pull rod moved.
(at least on the render)
As you see, the render is detailed and even the tear-drop-shaped diffuser supports are there... but not in an 'outwashy' angle
The very nose-up front wishbones arent new for Alfa, they had them in 2022, like RB. Are they really for "anti-dive"? Or are they mainly for aero: to downwash FW airflow towards floor mouth ?
Rear suspensions look similar but it seems the top wishbone and pull rod moved.
(at least on the render)
As you see, the render is detailed and even the tear-drop-shaped diffuser supports are there... but not in an 'outwashy' angle https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FoW1Oe_XEAE ... ame=medium
The very nose-up front wishbones arent new for Alfa, they had them in 2022, like RB. Are they really for "anti-dive"? Or are they mainly for aero: to downwash FW airflow towards floor mouth ?
Maybe but in the formula1uno article there are quotes from team members saying they had to redesign rear suspension and gearbox to rework the aero concept to the one unveiled on the c43
It's very brave, especially where Formula 1 is concerned, to say where the air flows and how it doesn't. In fact, Willem Toet, long-time chief aerodynamicist of teams like Benetton, Ferrari, BAR, BMW and Sauber said just a few days ago in a public lecture at the University of Bolton (available on youtube) that it is complete nonsense what is constantly said, namely that F1 teams try to seal the underbody completely. That's not what F1 teams do, not at all. Lateral expansion is actually something that is used to create more downforce. So what this space engineer is saying actually makes a lot of sense and is exactly in line with what an F1 aerodynamicist with 40 years of experience in this field is saying.
Andi, please send me the link from Willem Toet here or on sime973@gmail.com
Thank you
It is just a mock up for the looks , flow doesn't even move in that direction properly at that point of the car. The channel is not credible
It's very brave, especially where Formula 1 is concerned, to say where the air flows and how it doesn't. In fact, Willem Toet, long-time chief aerodynamicist of teams like Benetton, Ferrari, BAR, BMW and Sauber said just a few days ago in a public lecture at the University of Bolton (available on youtube) that it is complete nonsense what is constantly said, namely that F1 teams try to seal the underbody completely. That's not what F1 teams do, not at all. Lateral expansion is actually something that is used to create more downforce. So what this space engineer is saying actually makes a lot of sense and is exactly in line with what an F1 aerodynamicist with 40 years of experience in this field is saying.
Andi, please send me the link from Willem Toet here or on sime973@gmail.com
Thank you
Sent. Willem also explains what they are actually doing. But you have to listen carefully. Unlike what he says at first, he doesn't emphasize it when he mentions it. He rather tells it later then rather casually.
This space engineer says the floor edge is used as a lateral diffuser and it’s very dangerous that alfa romeo is showing this to everyone
The car creates the downforce by sucking the air out from the floor and creating lateral venturi tunnels
It is just a mock up for the looks , flow doesn't even move in that direction properly at that point of the car. The channel is not credible
It's very brave, especially where Formula 1 is concerned, to say where the air flows and how it doesn't. In fact, Willem Toet, long-time chief aerodynamicist of teams like Benetton, Ferrari, BAR, BMW and Sauber said just a few days ago in a public lecture at the University of Bolton (available on youtube) that it is complete nonsense what is constantly said, namely that F1 teams try to seal the underbody completely. That's not what F1 teams do, not at all. Lateral expansion is actually something that is used to create more downforce. So what this space engineer is saying actually makes a lot of sense and is exactly in line with what an F1 aerodynamicist with 40 years of experience in this field is saying.
Cars and regulations today are different to that of before. I think today they are outwashing the floor to prevent inwash of higher pressure air.
Look at a ground effect car from the 70s. There are physical edge seals. The purpose was to seal the floor. Look at the picture:
The cars today are not built like the cars 30-40 years ago because the regulations are different. You do not have to worry about protecting the floor from inwash when you have edge seals available.
Remember, there's no free lunch in this game. The energy you steal (total pressure loss) for the lateral expansion, is no longer available for vertical expasion. I think teams would prefer to have edge seals, and simply run a more aggressive vertical expansion.
Look at what Porsche did to the 919 prototype, once they were free of regulations:
Edge seals.
No good venturi ever had leak paths!
-- said by me
If I had add something else, i'd say, it's possible that a car using both lateral and vertical expansion can generate more downforce than one using vertical expansion alone, but then I would have to question why the Porsche immediately grew skirts after they started doing the exhibition runs. Perhaps the math slightly is different from LMP to F1.
I always understood the term came from desire to seal the air (which is usually dirty front tyre wake) from getting in, not literally seal any lateral flow.
