2023 car comparison thread

[SirBastianVettel]

I really hope our excitement returns once we see the True RB and MB

Let's hope FOM's camera's are better at capturing the RB.

[Sevach]

scarbs say redbull will be the one to beat and ferrari is underwelming

I don't really buy the Ferrari thing. To me their developments look very sensible, added to the PU upgrade. Also, the S-duct solution is by far the most innovative solution so far this year if it turns out to be true.

It's like people forgot that for most of last season performance was pretty close, Red Bull faster on the straights and Ferrari better on corners and specially braking.

Seeing some treating Ferrari improving on this concept as a dumb decision is dumb on itself.

[gcdugas]

How many teams do we think have shed enough weight to start running ballast? So far only Alpine are talking about it. And by ballast, I don't mean just 5Kg but something consequential that can benefit the team by ballast placement. Say at least 15Kg.

[AR3-GP]

How many teams do we think have shed enough weight to start running ballast? So far only Alpine are talking about it. And by ballast, I don't mean just 5Kg but something consequential that can benefit the team by ballast placement. Say at least 15Kg.

15kg of ballast seems extreme. I wouldn't expect people to go from overweight last season, to 15+ kg under this year.

[f1316]

I really hope our excitement returns once we see the True RB and MB

We’ve seen the true MB.

[AR3-GP]

I really hope our excitement returns once we see the True RB and MB

We’ve seen the true MB.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

[LM10]

I really hope our excitement returns once we see the True RB and MB

We’ve seen the true MB.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Mercedes would fool themselves if they again would bring a completely new car later than necessary. It’s valuable time lost and they painfully experienced it last season.

Only three days of testing in total this season. Every lap counts. Even the filming day is crucial. Imagine having a reliability problem in testing and losing half a day. That would hurt.

[mzso]

I really hope our excitement returns once we see the True RB and MB

We’ve seen the true MB.

The true dummy car. And after a few races they'll bring their actual developments for this year.

[LM10]

I really hope our excitement returns once we see the True RB and MB

We’ve seen the true MB.

The true dummy car. And after a few races they'll bring their actual developments for this year.

It is their actual 2023 car. Every team will bring developments after a few races.

[Cs98]

How many teams do we think have shed enough weight to start running ballast? So far only Alpine are talking about it. And by ballast, I don't mean just 5Kg but something consequential that can benefit the team by ballast placement. Say at least 15Kg.

Dude, 5kg of ballast is A LOT on these cars. 15kg is extreme and I doubt anyone will ever reach that much given how hard it is to shed the weight.

Most of these teams would be ecstatic to have one KG of ballast right now, and even something that small can make a difference.

[gcdugas]

In 2021 the minimum weight was 756kg. I'm sure that after several years of stable regs they got to the point that they were using ballast, at least 10kg. The 2022 regs changes increased it to 796kg or thereabouts. The tires and wheels likely increased 2kg at each corner, 8kg total. Maybe add 2kg for bigger brakes, 1kg for the front wheel fairing. Total 20kg. Stronger floor maybe 15kg... 35kg + 756 = 790. The reason everyone but two terms were fighting to stay under was that there was so much unknown. Alpine and McLaren could make the weight without needing to support the floor from flexing without the stays (which the FIA bent the rules to allow) while other teams could not. In the heyday of the Schumacher era the cars had up to 60kg ballast. It was insane and they could tune the balance within a wide range. Engineers love ballast as it opens a world of options. 15kg is not that much. I'd wager that they were running between 15 and 20kg in 2021 so getting to that number is very achievable especially with the regs increasing by 40kg last year. I'd also wager that many teams probably have a goal of at least 15kg. Some may want to get back to 20kg. Remember, depending (in advance) on the floor stays saves weight.

I'd like to hear from some insiders as to what amount of ballast they were running in 2021.

[Cs98]

In 2021 the minimum weight was 756kg. I'm sure that after several years of stable regs they got to the point that they were using ballast, at least 10kg. The 2022 regs changes increased it to 796kg or thereabouts. The tires and wheels likely increased 2kg at each corner, 8kg total. Maybe add 2kg for bigger brakes, 1kg for the front wheel fairing. Total 20kg. Stronger floor maybe 15kg... 35kg + 756 = 790. The reason everyone but two terms were fighting to stay under was that there was so much unknown. Alpine and McLaren could make the weight without needing to support the floor from flexing without the stays (which the FIA bent the rules to allow) while other teams could not. In the heyday of the Schumacher era the cars had up to 60kg ballast. It was insane and they could tune the balance within a wide range. Engineers love ballast as it opens a world of options. 15kg is not that much. I'd wager that they were running between 15 and 20kg in 2021 so getting to that number is very achievable especially with the regs increasing by 40kg last year. I'd also wager that many teams probably have a goal of at least 15kg. Some may want to get back to 20kg. Remember, depending (in advance) on the floor stays saves weight.

I'd like to hear from some insiders as to what amount of ballast they were running in 2021.

You are just pulling numbers out of your ass to dispute what basically every single team has been telling you for over year now, that it's really hard to make the weight.

Maybe some cars will be approaching 10kg of ballast in 2025 but clearly not at this point in time judging by the paint jobs on most cars. You don't strip down to bare carbon if you got 10+kgs of margin in the weight department.

[gcdugas]

I did NOT pull "numbers out of my ass". I cited a rationale for every number I cited. Some, like the wheel weight increase, are speculation but it is not WILD speculation.

The reason the min weight keeps going up is because the FIA keeps adding things. Add the halo made of titanium with x-amount bending resistance, that's weight. Add a new nose crush resistance structure, that's weight, add side impact resistance, that's weight, add the 18in wheels, that's weight, add stiffness to prevent wing flexing, that's weight. The teams were using a good amount of ballast in 2021. The new regs added a bunch but also the teams couldn't take chances with reliability in their first iteration under the new regs. Plus it was the first year with a budget cap, no room for major revisions or poor reliability. They want to get to the point where they use a good amount of ballast ASAP. There are fore/aft balance matters they would like to fine tune. There are even right/left balance issues as one side may have the intercooler and another have the oil cooler as well as sharing the water cooling load. But this may mean that the right half of the car is carrying more weight than the left. This can affect braking and corner behavior differences between right and left turns. Ballast is the cure for that. Engineers love ballast. It won't take to 2025 to get to 10Kg ballast.

[gcdugas]

An item of convergence seems to be that all teams are going to a "cannon" style air exit just under the rear wing. And all these "waterslides" on the sidepods are an imitation of last year's Ferrari "sombrero".

[Cs98]

I did NOT pull "numbers out of my ass". I cited a rationale for every number I cited. Some, like the wheel weight increase, are speculation but it is not WILD speculation.

The reason the min weight keeps going up is because the FIA keeps adding things. Add the halo made of titanium with x-amount bending resistance, that's weight. Add a new nose crush resistance structure, that's weight, add side impact resistance, that's weight, add the 18in wheels, that's weight, add stiffness to prevent wing flexing, that's weight. The teams were using a good amount of ballast in 2021. The new regs added a bunch but also the teams couldn't take chances with reliability in their first iteration under the new regs. Plus it was the first year with a budget cap, no room for major revisions or poor reliability. They want to get to the point where they use a good amount of ballast ASAP. There are fore/aft balance matters they would like to fine tune. There are even right/left balance issues as one side may have the intercooler and another have the oil cooler as well as sharing the water cooling load. But this may mean that the right half of the car is carrying more weight than the left. This can affect braking and corner behavior differences between right and left turns. Ballast is the cure for that. Engineers love ballast. It won't take to 2025 to get to 10Kg ballast.

Here’s a bit of rationale. We know for a fact that the teams struggled to make weight (by a wide margin for most), even this season judging by several quotes and the paint jobs. The weight limit is 798 kilograms. So the added weight obviously way exceeded your “rationale” of 790. You also suggested teams would have been running 10kg of ballast in 2021, meaning they would have only weighed like 780 at the start of 2022 using your “rationale”. Logical conclusion… you just came up with 35 kg from nowhere, because it doesn’t correlate with reality.