2023 car comparison thread

[Sevach]

[Vanja #66]

That might be the most striking illustration of how cranked up the front wing of SF-23 is, W14 on that comparison is ever so slightly larger and yet SF-23 wing in central to mid span zone is bigger. This might be related to the changes made to the front tyres, if they are indeed designed to combat understeer they might benefit with more load at the front.

Also worth noting is rear wing chosen by Ferrari for Fiorano run, it's a medium level wing so the front is likely also not loaded to its limit. We might see even more loaded front wing on Ferrari on high-downforce tracks, by extending the loading outboard and reducing the outwash. Or Ferrari might have been messing with the setup shown in Fiorano

[AR3-GP]

That might be the most striking illustration of how cranked up the front wing of SF-23 is, W14 on that comparison is ever so slightly larger and yet SF-23 wing in central to mid span zone is bigger. This might be related to the changes made to the front tyres, if they are indeed designed to combat understeer they might benefit with more load at the front.

Also worth noting is rear wing chosen by Ferrari for Fiorano run, it's a medium level wing so the front is likely also not loaded to its limit. We might see even more loaded front wing on Ferrari on high-downforce tracks, by extending the loading outboard and reducing the outwash. Or Ferrari might have been messing with the setup shown in Fiorano

The entire wing flap is on a rotating adjuster (I know that you know this ).

[f1316]

I really hope our excitement returns once we see the True RB and MB

We’ve seen the true MB.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

I think this is very much a conscious choice of Mercedes’ to reduce variability. They’ve presumably hoped to fix their issues from last year with the underfloor and want to verify that before changing anything else in their concept too much - hence why the sidepods are an evolution of last year’s but the same basic concept.

So I don’t expect them to commit to a change in sidepod design - given all the financial implications of doing so if it then turns out they have other issues - until they verify the baseline is right.

This way of thinking is really exactly what Toto is saying: you can expect to potentially see changes to the sidepods *in the first few races* but not race one and not until they know they’ve gone down the right path. This is clearly what they learned from last year.

[Vanja #66]

The entire wing flap is on a rotating adjuster (I know that you know this ).

Yes but you can never exceed the regulation box geometry and this setup looks to be close to the limit already. If that's what you were refering to

[AR3-GP]

The entire wing flap is on a rotating adjuster (I know that you know this ).

Yes but you can never exceed the regulation box geometry and this setup looks to be close to the limit already. If that's what you were refering to

Ok understood. I just didn't remember very many teams bringing new front wings last season for more front downforce. Most teams just cranked up the flap angle on the basic wing for Monaco, Singapore etc.

[organic]

The entire wing flap is on a rotating adjuster (I know that you know this ).

Yes but you can never exceed the regulation box geometry and this setup looks to be close to the limit already. If that's what you were refering to

Ok understood. I just didn't remember very many teams bringing new front wings last season for more front downforce. Most teams just cranked up the flap angle on the basic wing for Monaco, Singapore etc.

Yes I think RB, Merc at the least (probably others too) had different flaps for different races, but it seemed very rare for teams to change front wing properly in the season. Williams did it with their Silverstone upgrade I think, and Alfa with their cota upgrade but even that was a 2023 part brought early. I remember alpine saying that it was not efficient money-wise to bring new front wings vs updates to the floor. As the regs mature and teams get better at having modular wings maybe that'll change

Alpine have said already they have made their front wing more modular this season and plan to make changes to it during the season

[nico5]

That might be the most striking illustration of how cranked up the front wing of SF-23 is, W14 on that comparison is ever so slightly larger and yet SF-23 wing in central to mid span zone is bigger. This might be related to the changes made to the front tyres, if they are indeed designed to combat understeer they might benefit with more load at the front.

Also worth noting is rear wing chosen by Ferrari for Fiorano run, it's a medium level wing so the front is likely also not loaded to its limit. We might see even more loaded front wing on Ferrari on high-downforce tracks, by extending the loading outboard and reducing the outwash. Or Ferrari might have been messing with the setup shown in Fiorano

Also, SF23's front wing looks a lot more s-shaped than Mercedes', a bit like Merc were running the older wings with a shorter chord and much higher AoAs at the centre.




For reference, W08 and W09

[gcdugas]

Here’s a bit of rationale. We know for a fact that the teams struggled to make weight (by a wide margin for most), even this season judging by several quotes and the paint jobs. The weight limit is 798 kilograms. So the added weight obviously way exceeded your “rationale” of 790. You also suggested teams would have been running 10kg of ballast in 2021, meaning they would have only weighed like 780 at the start of 2022 using your “rationale”. Logical conclusion… you just came up with 35 kg from nowhere, because it doesn’t correlate with reality.

gcdugas replies: From another thread on the 2023 Alpine... "He confirms the car is under the minimum weight and will have plenty of ballast to play with." Click the "up arrow" for direct quote. I'd generally guess that they are at 10Kg ballast because 5Kg is hardly "plenty" for these engineers. Just so you know, last year's Alpha Tauri ran ballast. What is "plenty" in your mind?

[Cs98]

gcdugas replies: From another thread on the 2023 Alpine... "He confirms the car is under the minimum weight and will have plenty of ballast to play with." Click the "up arrow" for direct quote. I'd generally guess that they are at 10Kg ballast because 5Kg is hardly "plenty" for these engineers. Just so you know, last year's Alpha Tauri ran ballast. What is "plenty" in your mind?

A few kilograms is plenty of ballast on these cars. Of course more is better, but one KG of ballast can make a difference on an F1 car. You may remember how for example RB used to move their drinks bottle to the front wing, that would only have weighed a kilo or two, but they did it because every little bit matters.

Getting down to the weight limit is extremely important, and shedding that weight costs money. But as soon as you start shedding weight far beyond the weight limit it’s a case of diminishing returns.

[gcdugas]

So where do you think all this extra weight is? From 2021 to 2022 they added approx 40Kg to the minimum weight. Why are they "struggling" so? Do the wheels, brakes and new floor really add that much to the car?

BTW, do you know the RB18 shed 7Kg in a single upgrade last year? Maybe the Engineers are using all this exposed carbon as a ruse to raise the min weight so they can distribute more ballast without weight gain relative to their competitors. The CF must be clear-coated with a protectant. That probably weighs 1/3 to 1/2 the weight of paint. The AT03 had full paint and ran ballast. To expect the teams to get to 15Kg ballast swiftly is not at all unreasonable.

Did you know that the 2003 Ferrari had 100Kg ballast?
viewtopic.php?p=638&hilit=ballast#p638

The 2009 Renault ran 60Kg ballast.
viewtopic.php?p=93078&hilit=ballast#p93078

Engineers love ballast. And with the cost cap, they had to over-engineer key components since much was unknown and they had to insure reliability. How could the RB18 shed 7Kg in a single upgrade if they were fighting for every gram of paint? Any car in the first iteration under new regs will have plenty of pork.

Mod edit: various unsuitable comments have been removed, items in italics have been added to aid readability as a result

[Henk_v]

Thanks. I'll have a marketing career then.

[AR3-GP]

gcdugas replies: From another thread on the 2023 Alpine... "He confirms the car is under the minimum weight and will have plenty of ballast to play with." Click the "up arrow" for direct quote. I'd generally guess that they are at 10Kg ballast because 5Kg is hardly "plenty" for these engineers. Just so you know, last year's Alpha Tauri ran ballast. What is "plenty" in your mind?

I think you are missing something quite subtle. Alpha Tauri and all teams run ballast in order to fall into the FIA's regulated weight distribution (as well as for mechanical balance tuning ).

Alpha Tauri did too, but Alpha Tauri was running this ballast WHILE being very overweight last year. you've misunderstood the purpose of the ballast:

They weren't running those ballast because they were underweight.

https://www.racefans.net/2022/11/17/alp ... sis-gasly/

AlphaTauri made too little progress with “massively overweight” chassis – Gasly
2022 Abu Dhabi Grand PrixPosted on
17th November 2022, 16:31 | Written by Keith Collantine and Claire Cottingham

Pierre Gasly says AlphaTauri’s performance has been compromised this year because they have failed to lighten their “massively overweight” car.

ADVERT | BECOME A SUPPORTER & GO AD-FREE

“We’ve been like 12 to 13 kilos overweight the whole season and we didn’t manage to cut this down at all,” he told media including RaceFans in Abu Dhabi.
Gasly estimates the additional weight, on top of F1’s minimum limit of 798kg, has cost them around “three and a half tenths per lap,” which he believes prevented them from qualifying inside the top 10 on many occasions.

[McMika98]

Tsunoda is 5feet and weighs probably 60 kg so a good 20kg below the driver weight limit which is covered by using ballast. It will be interesting with Alpha Tauri this year as NIckDV is also of similar stature. Last year when Nick replaced Albon in Monza, Williams used massive amount of ballast which improved the car performance and the car handling.

[Vanja #66]

Tsunoda is 5feet and weighs probably 60 kg so a good 20kg below the driver weight limit which is covered by using ballast. It will be interesting with Alpha Tauri this year as NIckDV is also of similar stature. Last year when Nick replaced Albon in Monza, Williams used massive amount of ballast which improved the car performance and the car handling.

Driver+seat must be at least 80kg, so all this extra weight is in the seat.