2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[AR3-GP]

mike elliott history with mercedes:

Technical Director
Jul 2021 - Present1 year 9 months

Technology Director
Jul 2017 - Jul 20214 years 1 month

Head of aerodynamics
Jul 2012 - Jul 2017 5 years 1 month

he has been head of aero since 2012 i don't understand he seems to be very knowledgable and i think if there was a problem he would have seen it

Their tools are behind. I don't know what they have, but Ted needs to ask them about transient simulation.
CFD is all nice and dandy under steady state. But how well do they do transients?

They can still salvage the year, but it will take a bold move to get the sidepod undercut, the shielded sidepods and front wing and floor changes to complement those. Also the mid wing's function will be affected. So they will need to figure out how they are going to cover that side impact structure when its no longer a mid wing.

I think that conceptually, the mid-wing is essentially the Mercedes concept. Moreso than the sidepod itself.

This may be a case of Mercedes not wanting to abandon the mid-wing.

[Hammerfist]

A theoretical question, if anyone fancies a go at it.
What would happen if Merc said 'sod it, lets sort it' and ignored the cost cap?
Throw resources at it irrespective of limits, just get it sorted. It looks unlikely to be anywhere close to a title this year, so blow the budget and aim for the best car next year.

Huge fine? its just cash, they can absorb that no problem.
Exclusion from the season? I don't think anything other than winning means much to them, so no loss.

Next year they would then have a car not only competitive but probably in contention and have computers full of data that has been tested for following years.
Is it only this year they would be excluded form or could they face consecutive years exclusion? To me, anything else is not really a deterrent.

They may even be able to pass a lot of the cost off by spending what they saved on engineers on accountants

They would not do that because of brand image. They would be seen as cheaters and that’s a no go for them. Especially with how they were so vocal criticizing rbr for their breach las year.

[CHT]

A theoretical question, if anyone fancies a go at it.
What would happen if Merc said 'sod it, lets sort it' and ignored the cost cap?
Throw resources at it irrespective of limits, just get it sorted. It looks unlikely to be anywhere close to a title this year, so blow the budget and aim for the best car next year.

Huge fine? its just cash, they can absorb that no problem.
Exclusion from the season? I don't think anything other than winning means much to them, so no loss.

Next year they would then have a car not only competitive but probably in contention and have computers full of data that has been tested for following years.
Is it only this year they would be excluded form or could they face consecutive years exclusion? To me, anything else is not really a deterrent.

They may even be able to pass a lot of the cost off by spending what they saved on engineers on accountants

They would not do that because of brand image. They would be seen as cheaters and that’s a no go for them. Especially with how they were so vocal criticizing rbr for their breach las year.

Or they end up as the new Toyota F1.

[JordanMugen]

I have an idea to add a sweeping undercut to the zero-pods.

The sidepod has to go straight down to the floor or be convex (outwards) in order to legalise the SIPS wing. If there was an undercut (concave curve) to the sidepod, the SIPS wing is not legal.

It's not possible to have an undercut and keep the SIPS wing.

[mendis]

Has Mercedes messed up their Suspension or was it just a setup issue? Their tyre life has been screwed. The long run data suggested as such in testing and the race yesterday clearly exposed that. Last year, it was their major strength.

[mendis]

according to Amus the spec b has been running more than 2 weeks ago now

Yes it's also a direct quote from toto so it's fairly reliable. Although there are caveats to that

during the 2022 abu dhabi gp toto confirmed that in the wind tunnel there the W14 had zero pods like W13 so i guess he was talking about the current W14

maybe during the winter they found the problems that's why since the reveal of the car they kept talking about that there will be changes

My understanding was that, they had higher drag issue due to the zero pods as the fairly laymanish explanation was that, with those sidepods it was difficult to manage front tyre wake. Otherwise, downforce was not their problem. It seems things have changed on that aspect. Now it seems like the car is missing loads of downforce, but they are not talking about drag anymore. If the side pod design has issues with lack of downforce, why was it not talked about last year? Why everyone claimed they had the most downforce of all? Seems like there is no clarity on the problems. Have the solved the drag issue without changing the concept?

[bas550]

A theoretical question, if anyone fancies a go at it.
What would happen if Merc said 'sod it, lets sort it' and ignored the cost cap?
Throw resources at it irrespective of limits, just get it sorted. It looks unlikely to be anywhere close to a title this year, so blow the budget and aim for the best car next year.

Huge fine? its just cash, they can absorb that no problem.
Exclusion from the season? I don't think anything other than winning means much to them, so no loss.

Next year they would then have a car not only competitive but probably in contention and have computers full of data that has been tested for following years.
Is it only this year they would be excluded form or could they face consecutive years exclusion? To me, anything else is not really a deterrent.

They may even be able to pass a lot of the cost off by spending what they saved on engineers on accountants

People seem to have the idea that because RB overspend by 400K, they're suddenly enjoying this big advantage.

RBR received a 7 million dollar fine and 10% CFD/windtunnel penalty. I have extreme doubts that Merc overspending by 400K will bring them anywhere near RB, or even aston at this point. So how much will it take? 4 million? Will Merc risk a 70 million dollar fine and 100% reduction in CFD/Windtunnel? 10 million? Will they risk 210 million dollar fine and 250% reduction? And who says 10 million is enough?

Given how they acted in the RBR case, one wonders what they'd say if they where caught spending more.

Hypothetically, of course.

[mendis]

A theoretical question, if anyone fancies a go at it.
What would happen if Merc said 'sod it, lets sort it' and ignored the cost cap?
Throw resources at it irrespective of limits, just get it sorted. It looks unlikely to be anywhere close to a title this year, so blow the budget and aim for the best car next year.

Huge fine? its just cash, they can absorb that no problem.
Exclusion from the season? I don't think anything other than winning means much to them, so no loss.

Next year they would then have a car not only competitive but probably in contention and have computers full of data that has been tested for following years.
Is it only this year they would be excluded form or could they face consecutive years exclusion? To me, anything else is not really a deterrent.

They may even be able to pass a lot of the cost off by spending what they saved on engineers on accountants

People seem to have the idea that because RB overspend by 400K, they're suddenly enjoying this big advantage.

RBR received a 7 million dollar fine and 10% CFD/windtunnel penalty. I have extreme doubts that Merc overspending by 400K will bring them anywhere near RB, or even aston at this point. So how much will it take? 4 million? Will Merc risk a 70 million dollar fine and 100% reduction in CFD/Windtunnel? 10 million? Will they risk 210 million dollar fine and 250% reduction? And who says 10 million is enough?

Given how they acted in the RBR case, one wonders what they'd say if they where caught spending more.

Hypothetically, of course.

They already have spent $140 million in 2022 (development + racing) and it's been status quo in quali and way worse in race. There are no signs of even minor chipping from the performance shortfall and rather an increase of deficit. There is no guarantee that even if they spend another 10 million extra over RB, they can go on par.

[Vanja #66]

People seem to have the idea that because RB overspend by 400K, they're suddenly enjoying this big advantage.

RBR received a 7 million dollar fine and 10% CFD/windtunnel penalty.

RB was more than 2m over, 7m fine was not included in the 2022 budget cap and 10% ATR penalty is insignificant, aerodynamicists simply think twice what to test and waste no runs on "let's try this, maybe it works but not sure". So the penalty was a slap on the wrist at best, but it was actually a very stern finger wagging

[Redragon]

A theoretical question, if anyone fancies a go at it.
What would happen if Merc said 'sod it, lets sort it' and ignored the cost cap?
Throw resources at it irrespective of limits, just get it sorted. It looks unlikely to be anywhere close to a title this year, so blow the budget and aim for the best car next year.

Huge fine? its just cash, they can absorb that no problem.
Exclusion from the season? I don't think anything other than winning means much to them, so no loss.

Next year they would then have a car not only competitive but probably in contention and have computers full of data that has been tested for following years.
Is it only this year they would be excluded form or could they face consecutive years exclusion? To me, anything else is not really a deterrent.

They may even be able to pass a lot of the cost off by spending what they saved on engineers on accountants

But they will affected by their time and development next year, as RB is going to be affected during this year for their sanction. So yes as you said they can say F+++k the rules but if they still produce a car is not at front for next year, they will be not only affected by the santion they might receive but a huge money debt that could be last for the team. Because sponsors might run away too. Redbull overspend but it was a small amount and sounded as mistake. If Mercedes goes full beans on overspending, they will seen a cheaters no in the good way. I think the process is like any other team has tated 8 years of glory, swallow the ego pill and recover in few years time, like RB or Ferrari has been doing for last 20 years. It is the phylosophy of the sport

[Rootsap]

A theoretical question, if anyone fancies a go at it.
What would happen if Merc said 'sod it, lets sort it' and ignored the cost cap?
Throw resources at it irrespective of limits, just get it sorted. It looks unlikely to be anywhere close to a title this year, so blow the budget and aim for the best car next year.

Huge fine? its just cash, they can absorb that no problem.
Exclusion from the season? I don't think anything other than winning means much to them, so no loss.

Next year they would then have a car not only competitive but probably in contention and have computers full of data that has been tested for following years.
Is it only this year they would be excluded form or could they face consecutive years exclusion? To me, anything else is not really a deterrent.

They may even be able to pass a lot of the cost off by spending what they saved on engineers on accountants

People seem to have the idea that because RB overspend by 400K, they're suddenly enjoying this big advantage.

RBR received a 7 million dollar fine and 10% CFD/windtunnel penalty. I have extreme doubts that Merc overspending by 400K will bring them anywhere near RB, or even aston at this point. So how much will it take? 4 million? Will Merc risk a 70 million dollar fine and 100% reduction in CFD/Windtunnel? 10 million? Will they risk 210 million dollar fine and 250% reduction? And who says 10 million is enough?

Given how they acted in the RBR case, one wonders what they'd say if they where caught spending more.

Hypothetically, of course.

Couldn't they skip a few races and use the money they save to further develop their car? Or are they obligated to run by the rules?
Maybe makes more sense than overspending...
They could then select a few races where they run and use the tracktime as testing.

[F1Krof]

One thing that they shouldn't fall into Ferrari & McLaren mindset is that they shouldn't focus of turning the tables around in short term. Just because you've won 8 WDC & WCC in the row does not give any form of entitlement that one "SHOULD" win championships just because.

They should keep their heads down, look at mid to long term solutions, they shouldn't focus on the details and get lost completely chasing whichever idea comes to mind first.

[bas550]

A theoretical question, if anyone fancies a go at it.
What would happen if Merc said 'sod it, lets sort it' and ignored the cost cap?
Throw resources at it irrespective of limits, just get it sorted. It looks unlikely to be anywhere close to a title this year, so blow the budget and aim for the best car next year.

Huge fine? its just cash, they can absorb that no problem.
Exclusion from the season? I don't think anything other than winning means much to them, so no loss.

Next year they would then have a car not only competitive but probably in contention and have computers full of data that has been tested for following years.
Is it only this year they would be excluded form or could they face consecutive years exclusion? To me, anything else is not really a deterrent.

They may even be able to pass a lot of the cost off by spending what they saved on engineers on accountants

People seem to have the idea that because RB overspend by 400K, they're suddenly enjoying this big advantage.

RBR received a 7 million dollar fine and 10% CFD/windtunnel penalty. I have extreme doubts that Merc overspending by 400K will bring them anywhere near RB, or even aston at this point. So how much will it take? 4 million? Will Merc risk a 70 million dollar fine and 100% reduction in CFD/Windtunnel? 10 million? Will they risk 210 million dollar fine and 250% reduction? And who says 10 million is enough?

Given how they acted in the RBR case, one wonders what they'd say if they where caught spending more.

Hypothetically, of course.

They already have spent $140 million in 2022 (development + racing) and it's been status quo in quali and way worse in race. There are no signs of even minor chipping from the performance shortfall and rather an increase of deficit. There is no guarantee that even if they spend another 10 million extra over RB, they can go on par.

That's exactly my point.

People seem to have the idea that because RB overspend by 400K, they're suddenly enjoying this big advantage.

RBR received a 7 million dollar fine and 10% CFD/windtunnel penalty.

RB was more than 2m over, 7m fine was not included in the 2022 budget cap and 10% ATR penalty is insignificant, aerodynamicists simply think twice what to test and waste no runs on "let's try this, maybe it works but not sure". So the penalty was a slap on the wrist at best, but it was actually a very stern finger wagging

As per the FIA themselves:

The FIA acknowledges that had RBR applied the correct treatment within its Full Year Reporting Documentation of RBR’s Notional Tax Credit within its 2021 submission of a value of £1,431,348, it would have been considered by the Cost Cap Administration to be in compliance with Article 4.1(b) of the Regulations and therefore RBR’s Relevant Costs for the 2021 Reporting Period would have in fact exceeded the 2021 Cost Cap by £432,652 (0.37%).

As per Toto Wolff, who said last year that Ferrari having 15% more tunnel runs available than Mercedes buys them 2 tenths (70% vs 95%). Red Bull for 2023, by finishing first and then having another 10% cut...this is now not a penalty at all? So RBR has 63% available and next nearest team 75%, and Mercedes 80%.

People need to make their mind up and not pick and choose when something is a slap on the wrist or when it isn't.

Yes, RBR is massively ahead now but to throw this all on a minor breach is hilarious, even a minor percentage of it.

[bas550]

A theoretical question, if anyone fancies a go at it.
What would happen if Merc said 'sod it, lets sort it' and ignored the cost cap?
Throw resources at it irrespective of limits, just get it sorted. It looks unlikely to be anywhere close to a title this year, so blow the budget and aim for the best car next year.

Huge fine? its just cash, they can absorb that no problem.
Exclusion from the season? I don't think anything other than winning means much to them, so no loss.

Next year they would then have a car not only competitive but probably in contention and have computers full of data that has been tested for following years.
Is it only this year they would be excluded form or could they face consecutive years exclusion? To me, anything else is not really a deterrent.

They may even be able to pass a lot of the cost off by spending what they saved on engineers on accountants

People seem to have the idea that because RB overspend by 400K, they're suddenly enjoying this big advantage.

RBR received a 7 million dollar fine and 10% CFD/windtunnel penalty. I have extreme doubts that Merc overspending by 400K will bring them anywhere near RB, or even aston at this point. So how much will it take? 4 million? Will Merc risk a 70 million dollar fine and 100% reduction in CFD/Windtunnel? 10 million? Will they risk 210 million dollar fine and 250% reduction? And who says 10 million is enough?

Given how they acted in the RBR case, one wonders what they'd say if they where caught spending more.

Hypothetically, of course.

Couldn't they skip a few races and use the money they save to further develop their car? Or are they obligated to run by the rules?
Maybe makes more sense than overspending...
They could then select a few races where they run and use the tracktime as testing.

They're obligated to enter races or lose out on participation payout...and even then, they gather more data from doing races than anything else...

[Big Tea]

To clarify, I am not making any comparison to Red Bull, just the fact (?) that they are not going to be in the fight this year, so what is to lose except money they would have spent anyway in a passed year . They can not just not bother to attend races as they are contracted to by F1 and (probably ) sponsors. They can not build or test beyond the level other teams can, so there seems no way to catch up as the 'brains' that have been doing tricks seem to have wandered off to other teams, so it looks unlikely much is going to change.
What are their options?

Ps not saying it is unfair, it has been the same for other teams, but until 2021 there was the 'throw money at it 'option, now there is not even the option to try one or two tweaks without falling foul, so the sheep or lamb thing becomes relevant