2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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chrisc90
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Joined: 23 Feb 2022, 21:22

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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mendis wrote:
02 May 2023, 10:40
PlatinumZealot wrote:
01 May 2023, 10:11
Same old weak rear down-force story. Same problem from 2021. Same problem from 2017 and 2015.
Did we not hear all through last year that they have most downforce of all teams, that can rip the tarmac out, but due to porpoising they are unable to show it?

I had a feeling in my head that they changed the floor to sort the problems, then the same problem comes around.

Has a it one got a timeline of events, concerns, upgrades on the car since the start of the era?

Something just doesn’t seem to tally up

Farnborough
Farnborough
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Joined: 18 Mar 2023, 14:15

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Their problem is directly related to the mid wing concept.

The "downwash" gives lift, that enters the chassis at the root of it's support, despite what many say, it can't route to anywhere else.

Yes all the others have "downwash" too, but with most expressing the negative pressure almost directly over the most powerful element of under floor negative pressure point. The transaction between those two is directly linked longitudinally in the chassis, one above the other in effect.

Mid wing displaces that effect far further forward, then lifting the front of chassis as speed rises. Increase in diffuser/floor negative pressure nearer to rear just makes that front lift more prominent. Listen to comments on second day of Bahrain testing. Something like "complete, mysterious loss of front downforce" when they (by wispered account) dropped the rear ride height.

There's no adjustment on mid wing, they're stuck with that fixed lift profile, only putting on more and more front and rear wing appears to counter this. Then the drag is there. It's like a see-saw, push down on one end and the other comes up, giving rise to drivers observation of never being able to balance the car.

There's no real separation of control downstream on zero pod either, it's all got to be positioned by that one mid wing to condition so many defining aspect of post-mid to rear flow streams. There's just not the tools there to operate effectively, especially if aero time is limited. They also demonstrate that they don't understand it, arriving at each track being a surprise in performance terms, and whether that's going to be a plus or a minus surprise :D

harty71
harty71
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Joined: 14 Nov 2022, 10:03

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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I'm not sure I fully believe Hamilton's speak of not getting to grips with the car because the seat is too far forward but say he is being truthful, can that feeling be remedied by these upgrades or is he stuck with it until they change the concept?

Farnborough
Farnborough
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Joined: 18 Mar 2023, 14:15

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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harty71 wrote:
02 May 2023, 12:29
I'm not sure I fully believe Hamilton's speak of not getting to grips with the car because the seat is too far forward but say he is being truthful, can that feeling be remedied by these upgrades or is he stuck with it until they change the concept?
If you look at RB19 from top view and at suspension arms, they all seem to be angled forward (from tub to wheel mounts) suggesting that the whole car has moved backwards in its wheelbase, without moving pickup/mount geometry.

It's possible that something like this may be part of their thoughts. They did, I think, do this type of adaption with their prior chassis (period before 2022 regs) with front suspension to alter their wheelbase in season.

50mm wouldn't be too far out of range as a pure guess, to maybe squeeze the whole chassis backwards in its own wheelbase.

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ValeVida46
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Joined: 23 Feb 2023, 13:36

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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chrisc90 wrote:
02 May 2023, 11:36
I had a feeling in my head that they changed the floor to sort the problems, then the same problem comes around.

Has a it one got a timeline of events, concerns, upgrades on the car since the start of the era?

Something just doesn’t seem to tally up
It's not a simple binary problem.

As Wolff said their problem is more about ride control than sheer downforce.
You can see their car is barely moving, be it on straights or over bumps, Corner-through balance looks easy. You look at all the other onboards and the cars are tricky.
You can add x amount of downforce which exacerbates that issue. You correct that issue and find you have a balance issue. You correct that issue and find you're back to square one or create another problem.
Between AM/Ferrari and Mercedes, they all seem well off in ride control relative to Red Bull.
But when compared to each other they are fairly similar and an aspect of trail and error that correlates with what we see from race to race with Ferrari being quicker in Baku and Merc in Oz and Aston in Jeddah.


The other tell is that despite those three being close in qualifying, come race day it's not even a race, it's Red Bull and then a big gap to the second tier. So I'd say it does add up, miracles don't happen overnight and 0.6+ gaps don't close after 4 races.

harty71
harty71
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Joined: 14 Nov 2022, 10:03

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Farnborough wrote:
02 May 2023, 12:44
harty71 wrote:
02 May 2023, 12:29
I'm not sure I fully believe Hamilton's speak of not getting to grips with the car because the seat is too far forward but say he is being truthful, can that feeling be remedied by these upgrades or is he stuck with it until they change the concept?
If you look at RB19 from top view and at suspension arms, they all seem to be angled forward (from tub to wheel mounts) suggesting that the whole car has moved backwards in its wheelbase, without moving pickup/mount geometry.

It's possible that something like this may be part of their thoughts. They did, I think, do this type of adaption with their prior chassis (period before 2022 regs) with front suspension to alter their wheelbase in season.

50mm wouldn't be too far out of range as a pure guess, to maybe squeeze the whole chassis backwards in its own wheelbase.
So the forward sitting position and bad feel can be fixed with upgrades?

Farnborough
Farnborough
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Joined: 18 Mar 2023, 14:15

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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It looks tentatively possible to me.

Its a guess, but they are likely to have that on the table as part of their discussions.

It'll be interesting to see just what the work brings to Imola.

harty71
harty71
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Joined: 14 Nov 2022, 10:03

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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If I'm not mistaken the seating position is the same as last season, it's strange that Hamilton failed to mention it then, he seemed to handle the car fine once they got a hold of the porpoising.

He hasn't had the lows yet of last season so I don't get why he's been complaining.

harty71
harty71
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Joined: 14 Nov 2022, 10:03

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Nice onboard of Hamilton, he did well to pass Ocon.


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214270
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Joined: 27 Apr 2019, 18:49

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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harty71 wrote:
02 May 2023, 14:23
Nice onboard of Hamilton, he did well to pass Ocon.

It was clean but truthfully OCO should’ve been on the accel way before HAM given the wider line; tyres playing a factor no doubt
Team ANTI-HYPE. Prove it, then I’ll anoint you.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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214270 wrote:
02 May 2023, 15:59
harty71 wrote:
02 May 2023, 14:23
Nice onboard of Hamilton, he did well to pass Ocon.

It was clean but truthfully OCO should’ve been on the accel way before HAM given the wider line; tyres playing a factor no doubt
OCO is boxed in by Russell.
A lion must kill its prey.

cplchanb
cplchanb
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Joined: 31 Jan 2017, 19:13

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Farnborough wrote:
02 May 2023, 13:02
It looks tentatively possible to me.

Its a guess, but they are likely to have that on the table as part of their discussions.

It'll be interesting to see just what the work brings to Imola.
wouldnt merc need to homogolate a brand new tub if the driving position needs to shift? its
tied to a major structure of the car right?

maygun
maygun
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Joined: 20 Mar 2023, 14:31

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Farnborough wrote:
02 May 2023, 10:01
Oh! And cost cap too :shock:
From RB's case, it seems the punishments gonna be related to next year. So I dont understand why Merc doesnt say --- the cost cap and catch redbull and develop a --- beast for the next year using this year's budget.

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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harty71 wrote:
02 May 2023, 12:56
Farnborough wrote:
02 May 2023, 12:44
harty71 wrote:
02 May 2023, 12:29
I'm not sure I fully believe Hamilton's speak of not getting to grips with the car because the seat is too far forward but say he is being truthful, can that feeling be remedied by these upgrades or is he stuck with it until they change the concept?
If you look at RB19 from top view and at suspension arms, they all seem to be angled forward (from tub to wheel mounts) suggesting that the whole car has moved backwards in its wheelbase, without moving pickup/mount geometry.

It's possible that something like this may be part of their thoughts. They did, I think, do this type of adaption with their prior chassis (period before 2022 regs) with front suspension to alter their wheelbase in season.

50mm wouldn't be too far out of range as a pure guess, to maybe squeeze the whole chassis backwards in its own wheelbase.
So the forward sitting position and bad feel can be fixed with upgrades?
Forward seating cannot be fixed without a new chassis, or sweeping the front wishbones forward so upgrades won't be able to correct it.
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Racing Green in 2028

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
03 May 2023, 02:05
harty71 wrote:
02 May 2023, 12:56
Farnborough wrote:
02 May 2023, 12:44

If you look at RB19 from top view and at suspension arms, they all seem to be angled forward (from tub to wheel mounts) suggesting that the whole car has moved backwards in its wheelbase, without moving pickup/mount geometry.

It's possible that something like this may be part of their thoughts. They did, I think, do this type of adaption with their prior chassis (period before 2022 regs) with front suspension to alter their wheelbase in season.

50mm wouldn't be too far out of range as a pure guess, to maybe squeeze the whole chassis backwards in its own wheelbase.
So the forward sitting position and bad feel can be fixed with upgrades?
Forward seating cannot be fixed without a new chassis, or sweeping the front wishbones forward so upgrades won't be able to correct it.
It is reported that Mercedes have a front suspension upgrade for Imola.
A lion must kill its prey.