F1 Energy store density for 2026 and hot swap batteries

[Zynerji]

Formula one ERS (energy recovery system) uses 'Kinetic' energy waste and 'Heat' energy waste. It gets 'Heat' waste energy from turbocharger and 'Kinetic' waste energy from braking system. The energy from ERS is then exploited to run the car.

adjective: kinetic
relating to or resulting from motion.


The definition of "kinetic" would suggest that the MGUK can recover energy when the car is moving.


I am still waiting for you to demonstrate where in the regulations it states that the MGUK can only recover energy during braking.

I think it's in the Traction Control realm. If you could recover under acceleration, the drivers would just run max throttle through the corners, and let the computer dim the power at wheel slip by using the K.

I feel this would be under the "driver torque demand" controlling the regen/ deploy.

[wuzak]

Formula one ERS (energy recovery system) uses 'Kinetic' energy waste and 'Heat' energy waste. It gets 'Heat' waste energy from turbocharger and 'Kinetic' waste energy from braking system. The energy from ERS is then exploited to run the car.

adjective: kinetic
relating to or resulting from motion.


The definition of "kinetic" would suggest that the MGUK can recover energy when the car is moving.


I am still waiting for you to demonstrate where in the regulations it states that the MGUK can only recover energy during braking.

I think it's in the Traction Control realm. If you could recover under acceleration, the drivers would just run max throttle through the corners, and let the computer dim the power at wheel slip by using the K.

Traction control is, of course, banned, so using the MGUK to give a TC effect or reduce the torque out compared to the torque demand is banned.

9.2.2 Traction control
No car may be equipped with a system or device which is capable of preventing the driven wheels from spinning under power or of compensating for excessive torque demand by the driver.
Any device or system which notifies the driver of the onset of wheel spin is not permitted.


That is not to say, however, that if the driver demands 600hp the engine can deliver 700hp and the MGUK recover 100hp so that the driver's torque demand is met.

[saviour stivala]

''I am still waiting on you to demonstrate where the regulations states that the MGU-K can only recover energy under braking''. Although by now am convinced that you will never understand why, I will repeat that there is no need for the regulations to state what are you asking for, I will try for the last time. The 2014 ERS formula was configured around capturing and making use of energy that would in previous formulas had gone to waste. The two different source of heat energy recovery aimed for has been explained to you. From many apart of course from the FIA who devised the ERS formula with all those involved agreeing, I will quote one out of many from memory. Remi Taffin director of operations Renault :-''In F1 we have an electric motor that is connected to the petrol engine, during the braking phase, it recovers the energy that is normally lost in heat''. Hope that you will not return telling me that like you did the RBPT project leader engineer that Taffin doesn't know the ERS rules because he is only a director of operations.

[NL_Fer]

On this topic,

have you guys seen this, they are making a concept of swapping the batteries on-the-fly commercially:
https://www.scmp.com/video/scmp-origina ... -batteries

I’d say Nio has already matured the technology. They have now done over 20 million swaps and the fully automated swap stations are already operational in Europe.

Nio is also a Formula E competitor.

[diffuser]

''Anything preventing the driver from using both brake and throttle at the same time?''. The brake-by-wire system failsafe system is designed to cut the engine when a driver applies brake and throttle at the same time. If a driver applies both brake and throttle at the same time the failsafe algorithm is designed to override the throttle and cut the engine. And as said earlier as well as elsewhere before, the present RBPT project leader engineer does said that using the brake pedal while under power to charge ES (MGU-K HARVESTING UNDER POWER) will be a no-go with the new for 2026 engine formula as is at present.

Thee is no explicit rule outlawing recovering energy while under power in the current regulations. You'll never qualify on Pole but you'll always be faster in race trim.

The 2026 regulations specifically allow for reduction in power unit output when at maximum torque demand (ie full throttle). The regulations specify a maximum rate at which the output can be reduced, and a maximum output reduction allowed.

The maximum reduction of output allowed is 450kW, or 100kW greater than what could be achieved by turning off the MGUK.

It is possible, but very unlikely, that the ICE output would be reduced by 100kW. More likely, the MGUK will be generating 100kW while under full throttle. That is, burning fuel to generate and store energy.

At this stage the F1 car will have around 400hp output.

There is no possible way to generate the 9MJ per lap allowed in the regulations from braking alone, and it would require extensive lift and coasting.

9MJ = 25.7s of generation @ 350kW.

There is no need for any rule outlawing recovery by MGU-K while under power, this as the present MGU-K recovery guidelines outlines/defines recovery by MGU-K ''energy recovered as under braking that would otherwise have gone to waste''. This eliminates design possibilities of MGU-K switching to recovery mode under throttle, and further as explained, the possibility of driver using both brake and throttle together so as MGU-K goes into recovery mode is eliminated by the brake-by-wire fail safe system. I remember two accidents, one was fetal and the other near fetal where it was found that the same team, had modified the brake-by-wire fail-safe system as supplied to them in contravention of the F1 intended spirit of the safety rules. As to the possibility that the 2026 rules will allow MGU-K to switch into recovery mode under power but without brake pedal being used, The RBPT leading design engineer seem to have eliminated this possibility in his interview by RET.

Without the MGU-K being able to recover power from the ICE, might as well just run without the MGU-K and the Battery. Car will likely be faster and more fuel efficiant! The weight isn't worth the 11 seconds. You'll never finish on pole but they'll not be able to catch you in race trim.

[saviour stivala]

The formula one MGU-K is allowed to release a maximum of 4mj of energy for 33.33 seconds over a lap.

[diffuser]

The formula one MGU-K is allowed to release a maximum of 4mj of energy for 33.33 seconds over a lap.

33 seconds is with current 160hp. Triple the hp, you'll one third the duration, if you can't improve efficiency. Even if you do, how much better can it get? It's not like the MGU-K are something new. They've been using them since 2014. Well, some cars, since 2009.

[AR3-GP]

The formula one MGU-K is allowed to release a maximum of 4mj of energy for 33.33 seconds over a lap.

33 seconds is with current 160hp. Triple the hp, you'll one third the duration, if you can't improve efficiency. Even if you do, how much better can it get? It's not like the MGU-K are something new. They've been using them since 2014. Well, some cars, since 2009.

Everyone is going to be roughly the same in the end and optimum deployment locations for limited reserve will be dictated by computer simulations.

[diffuser]

The formula one MGU-K is allowed to release a maximum of 4mj of energy for 33.33 seconds over a lap.

33 seconds is with current 160hp. Triple the hp, you'll one third the duration, if you can't improve efficiency. Even if you do, how much better can it get? It's not like the MGU-K are something new. They've been using them since 2014. Well, some cars, since 2009.

Everyone is going to be roughly the same in the end and optimum deployment locations for limited reserve will be dictated by computer simulations.

My point was, without being able to drive the MGU-K with the ICE, you're gonna only have slightly more than 11seconds of deployment. The car might be faster without having to carry around the battery and MGU-K.

[wuzak]

The formula one MGU-K is allowed to release a maximum of 4mj of energy for 33.33 seconds over a lap.

From the battery.

Additional power can be fed from the MGUH to the MGUK. This is likely not to be the full 120kW, but it can extend the maximum power deployment.

[wuzak]

''I am still waiting on you to demonstrate where the regulations states that the MGU-K can only recover energy under braking''. Although by now am convinced that you will never understand why, I will repeat that there is no need for the regulations to state what are you asking for, I will try for the last time. The 2014 ERS formula was configured around capturing and making use of energy that would in previous formulas had gone to waste. The two different source of heat energy recovery aimed for has been explained to you. From many apart of course from the FIA who devised the ERS formula with all those involved agreeing, I will quote one out of many from memory. Remi Taffin director of operations Renault :-''In F1 we have an electric motor that is connected to the petrol engine, during the braking phase, it recovers the energy that is normally lost in heat''. Hope that you will not return telling me that like you did the RBPT project leader engineer that Taffin doesn't know the ERS rules because he is only a director of operations.

I suspect that people like Taffin would simplify the operation of the MGUK for the media because they are, mostly, technically illiterate.

It is, no doubt, the primary objective for the MGUK to recover energy under braking, but the regulations do not prohibit using it in other ways.

Unless there is a technical directive of which we are not aware.

[wuzak]

33 seconds is with current 160hp. Triple the hp, you'll one third the duration, if you can't improve efficiency. Even if you do, how much better can it get? It's not like the MGU-K are something new. They've been using them since 2014. Well, some cars, since 2009.

Everyone is going to be roughly the same in the end and optimum deployment locations for limited reserve will be dictated by computer simulations.

My point was, without being able to drive the MGU-K with the ICE, you're gonna only have slightly more than 11seconds of deployment. The car might be faster without having to carry around the battery and MGU-K.

For 2026 the deployment is unlimited.

However, energy recovery allowed is 9MJ maximum, while storage is 4MJ maximum.

If 9MJ can be recovered, then 25.7s of deployment at 350kW would be possible, and maybe 37.1s is possible for qualifying (4MJ storage + 9MJ recovery).

It is likely that the full power usage is much more limited than that, and the bulk of the deployment would be 150-200kW.

One of the reasons for this is that the deployed power is reduced at 5kW per km/h over 300km/h, up to 340km/h, where the output limit is 150kW.

[saviour stivala]

Yes of course additional power can be fed from the MGU-H to the MGU-K as allowed by the rules, even the 'H' and 'K' SHARING es power. But while it can compensate for lack of ES power storage, it cannot 'EXTEND', and by that, I mean 'ADD' to the MGU-K maximum deployment per lap allowed by the rules. Mr. Moderator please do remove this post as I still cannot find a way to remove it myself. This am asking because I was responding to a post which by the time I posted I could not see anymore.

[saviour stivala]

The formula one MGU-K is allowed to release a maximum of 4mj of energy for 33.33 seconds over a lap.

From the battery.

Additional power can be fed from the MGUH to the MGUK. This is likely not to be the full 120kW, but it can extend the maximum power deployment.

Yes of course additional power can be fed from the MGU-H to the MGU-K. But while it can compensate for lack of ES stored output, it cannot 'AXTEND', and by that I mean, 'ADD', to the maximum MGU-K output deployment per lap by the rules. A note. You certainly have a very low opinion of the higher end technical people involved in F1.

[saviour stivala]

''History repeating itself'' At introduction of the present PU formula after it had been agreed upon by all concerned, and outed specification of its mandated ERS, Very few if any outside of those agreed to the new formula, and that includes most people from on here, could figure-out or see how was the new mandated ERS going to sustain ERS deployment for any reasonable length of time around a lap. It didn't took a long time for teams to come out claiming that they could deploy mostly all around a lap. And all this was achieved with the power unit formula devised/designed around the capturing of two different heat energy source that in the previous formula went to waste, namely braking heat (rear wheels only) and exhaust gas heat. What confused most if not all, were the permitted recovery by brakes and ES maximum capacity plus the MGU-K maximum permitted deployment time per lap. We are now going exactly through the same doubtful and conjecture/speculative process, even when experts involved comes out from time to time and say "this or that will not be permitted". because of our lack of knowhow and so build-in doubt, we promptly pronounce the lack of technical knowledge of said experts.