2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

[wuzak]

Because you are locked in a tiny box. I've posted the several times before. A turbo can hook to a special type of muffler design and not need an engine to produce combustion gasses. Having 2 mguh turbos on that device would make it a dual turbo-generator. Then build the K into the transmission and it's done.

I think it would be lighter to just be a single MGU connected to a gas turbine, which is what you are trying to describe, only making it much more complicated.

Perhaps a 2 shaft gas turbine - 1 shaft connects a turbine to the compressor and the second shaft connects a turbine to the power output/mgu.

The turbines and compressors could have multiple stages to maximise efficiency. But the efficiency is still going to be less than the current ICE.

Just add the MGUH to this setup...

It would be more like this:
http://www.gasturbineworld.co.uk/wpimag ... _05_06.jpg

http://www.gasturbineworld.co.uk/bladon.html

But probably with more stages.

Possibly a smaller version of one of these:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ped%29.jpg

[Zynerji]

I think it would be lighter to just be a single MGU connected to a gas turbine, which is what you are trying to describe, only making it much more complicated.

Perhaps a 2 shaft gas turbine - 1 shaft connects a turbine to the compressor and the second shaft connects a turbine to the power output/mgu.

The turbines and compressors could have multiple stages to maximise efficiency. But the efficiency is still going to be less than the current ICE.

Just add the MGUH to this setup...

It would be more like this:
http://www.gasturbineworld.co.uk/wpimag ... _05_06.jpg

http://www.gasturbineworld.co.uk/bladon.html

But probably with more stages.

Possibly a smaller version of one of these:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ped%29.jpg

While I agree, 100% with what you are saying. What I am saying is the turboMGUH-jet could literally be done today with what the teams already have. Like it could realistically be a weekend project by a couple guys. Add 2 500hp electric K units and wire it as a manual differential, so the driver runs the diff.in real-time with steering wheel triggers. Throw in the after-burner capable exhaust thrust for overtaking, and we got a green crowd pleaser (CNG)!

Elon has mentioned a jet powered Tesla. This would be it!

[wuzak]

And how much power do you expect such a contraption would generate?

And when you say "What I am saying is the turboMGUH-jet could literally be done today with what the teams already have. Like it could realistically be a weekend project by a couple guys" you mean that they could convert their turbo/MGUH setup to be a gas turbine by simply adding a combustion chamber?

[gruntguru]

While I agree, 100% with what you are saying. What I am saying is the turboMGUH-jet could literally be done today with what the teams already have. Like it could realistically be a weekend project by a couple guys. Add 2 500hp electric K units and wire it as a manual differential, so the driver runs the diff.in real-time with steering wheel triggers. Throw in the after-burner capable exhaust thrust for overtaking, and we got a green crowd pleaser (CNG)!
Elon has mentioned a jet powered Tesla. This would be it!

There is a "Tech Free For All" thread here somewhere, designed for those who need to regurgitate uninformed fantasies.

[wuzak]

Elon has mentioned a jet powered Tesla. This would be it!

Elon mentions a lot of things.

The jets in the "jet powered Tesla" were to be compressed gas nozzles on the new Tesla Roadster, due about 3 year sago.

[wuzak]

What would the power from the ICE in a series hybrid be required to power an F1 car with 1,000hp output from the drive electric motors?

Thinking simplistically, assuming an average of 70% spent at maximum power over the entire season, you would need 700hp?

[wuzak]

Would it be better, and easier, if MGUK deployment was limited to 150kW, and recovery to 350kW?

[mzso]

Would it be better, and easier, if MGUK deployment was limited to 150kW, and recovery to 350kW?

Sounds like a lot of unused energy going to waste.

[Tommy Cookers]

Would it be better, and easier, if MGUK deployment was limited to 150kW, and recovery to 350kW?

aren't we to avoid this by having active aero reduce DF coefficient at high speed ?
so prolonging regenerative braking time as necessary
yes it's lengthening the braking phase to feed the acceleration phase

F1 a bit like Le Mans - but (including the sprints) 36 times a year

[wuzak]

Would it be better, and easier, if MGUK deployment was limited to 150kW, and recovery to 350kW?

Sounds like a lot of unused energy going to waste.

Not really.

Get 150kW for 60s instead of 350kW for 25s.

Though the MGUK will likely deliver a range of power between 0 and 350kW, and mostly around ~150kW.

That's assuming 9MJ can be recovered per lap, which looks to be a tall order.

[wuzak]

Would it be better, and easier, if MGUK deployment was limited to 150kW, and recovery to 350kW?

aren't we to avoid this by having active aero reduce DF coefficient at high speed ?
so prolonging regenerative braking time as necessary
yes it's lengthening the braking phase to feed the acceleration phase

F1 a bit like Le Mans - but (including the sprints) 36 times a year

The reduction of aero drag at speed is due to the lower power that will be available, most of the time, at speed.

The ES can only deliver 4MJ at a time, which would be 11s at 350kW. There are a few flat out sections on F1 circuits that are longer than that, some more than double, which would mean spending a large amount of time at greatly reduced power.

4MJ @ 150kW = 26s.

Under the current rules the cars would be able to recover up to 300kW prior to braking with driver at full throttle, assuming no more than 150kW is deployed after full throttle is achieved.

If 350kW is deployed when full throttle is reached, then the maximum pre-braking recovery would be 100kW.


Either way, a car dropping 450kW on a straight while at full throttle could be a recipe for disaster.

[Big Tea]

Do people think it would be better to have a wider range of in/out of storage?
Power could maybe collected for several laps to give one or two banzai laps but not have a to recover at inconvenient times. No doubt battery capacity would need to be increased, but if it was limited to a set duration for the whole race not too bad.

We could see some strategic racing again then too.

[saviour stivala]

"Under the 'current rules' (effective up to 2025) the cars would be able to 'recover' up to 300kw prior to braking with the driver at full throttle''. For 2026 rules, as they stand up to this day, that recovery possibility under full throttle, will not be possible as the 'H' was left out of the 2026 rules.

[wuzak]

"Under the 'current rules' (effective up to 2025) the cars would be able to 'recover' up to 300kw prior to braking with the driver at full throttle''. For 2026 rules, as they stand up to this day, that recovery possibility under full throttle, will not be possible as the 'H' was left out of the 2026 rules.

I actually meant the 2026 rules.

"Current" as in how the 2026 rules are currently written.

The rules allow for power to be reduced by 450kW under full throttle.

If the maximum power used under full throttle is 150kW from the MGUK, then the recovery at the end of the straight could be as much as 300kW.

If the maximum MGUK power used is 350kW then the maximum recovery is 100kW.

[NL_Fer]

What would the power from the ICE in a series hybrid be required to power an F1 car with 1,000hp output from the drive electric motors?

Thinking simplistically, assuming an average of 70% spent at maximum power over the entire season, you would need 700hp?

Running 60-75% at full throttle, a series hybrid would be terribly inefficient. The Nissan e-power is only great until 100kph in dynamic traffic. And imagine the sound.