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He has consistently shown that he looks on the more pessimistic side and downplayed the team and his own performance, it seems to be how he chooses to try and push things forward.
The car hasn't been set up for low speed yet, lets see if it is terrible! if it is terrible I expect a terrible performance at Hungary. Why don't we have this conversation in 9 days
Yes he is always downplaying our chances. I guess he’s just careful of raising expectations too much. Pace in turn 3 Spielberg was good. So…
But the way he took it also probably helped alot. He truly is capable to adapt to whatever he is given and extract maximum.
If i would get the money to start my own F1 team, i would revive Arrows
I just watched from start to finish onboard the Austrian Grand Prix behind Lando's car. I noticed a couple of interesting points: at the entrance to slow corners, especially turn 3, there is a strong understeer, but this happens already when the tires run out. Coming out of medium speed corners, especially turn 6, there is some oversteer at times. There were no problems at all in fast corners: turns 7 and 9 were easy and reliable, it is clear that in fast corners the balance is perfect.
Edit: And I will note that one practice was allocated for tuning, perhaps the team could not find the optimal balance at that time. Don't know. Now I'm thinking of revisiting Max's race to have something to compare it to.
In Silverstone he also got a new front wing and in Hungary yet another 25% of the upgrade. What we haven't heard too much of is how the cars compare and what traits are intrinsic to this formula.
Well, I decided to watch the Austrian Grand Prix onboard from Max's car: the overall grip and neutral steering in all corners are impressive. Except that when the tires began to go away, oversteer appeared at times in medium-speed and fast corners. Entering turn 3, there was never a single understeer like Lando's. I can only assume from myself that if the McLaren chassis could just as easily pass turn 3, then on average Lando could pass 3 tens faster each lap.
Home hero Lando Norris fired a Chrome McLaren to our first British Grand Prix podium in 13 years,
as Oscar Piastri scored his best result to date before being serenaded by the Silverstone crowd.
Well, I decided to watch the Austrian Grand Prix onboard from Max's car: the overall grip and neutral steering in all corners are impressive. Except that when the tires began to go away, oversteer appeared at times in medium-speed and fast corners. Entering turn 3, there was never a single understeer like Lando's. I can only assume from myself that if the McLaren chassis could just as easily pass turn 3, then on average Lando could pass 3 tens faster each lap.
Was it understeer or was it Lando consciously taking a different line through there? I noticed when he was chasing hamilton he was avoiding using the turn 3 curb. Not sure if he did that all race though.
Well, I decided to watch the Austrian Grand Prix onboard from Max's car: the overall grip and neutral steering in all corners are impressive. Except that when the tires began to go away, oversteer appeared at times in medium-speed and fast corners. Entering turn 3, there was never a single understeer like Lando's. I can only assume from myself that if the McLaren chassis could just as easily pass turn 3, then on average Lando could pass 3 tens faster each lap.
Mclaren have several defecits to the RB, it's not an accurate representation to focus only on the one you want to champion. We have a straight line speed deficit, tyre management deficit and DRS deficit too and they are able follow cars without losing downforce in a way we cannot, just to mention the obvious. it is a better car in many ways, to bigger or lesser degrees. If we want to beat them and rival them at every track then we have to get better in many areas.
And turn 3 is a bad example as Lando has always used a different line here to use the kerbs to keep the car pointing in the right direction whilst carrying more speed around the corner as he also does at turn one and several other areas of the track. He throws the car just enough and not too much into the kerb to carry speed but let the kerb stop the car from understeering off the track. Weird, but true, and very effective. If it was understeer he'd manage the car through the corner. It was a choice and nothing at all to do with poor traction and has spoken about it since 2021.
Turn 3 is in red, the same performance as Red Bull, despite the lines, it is the same or similar across different sessions. I really do suggest you wait to see what performance the car has in different circumstances because you are jumping to conclusions, as is anyone who thinks they know this 2 race old car.
Turn 3 is one of the only places we were on a par with Red Bull in actuality...
Well, I decided to watch the Austrian Grand Prix onboard from Max's car: the overall grip and neutral steering in all corners are impressive. Except that when the tires began to go away, oversteer appeared at times in medium-speed and fast corners. Entering turn 3, there was never a single understeer like Lando's. I can only assume from myself that if the McLaren chassis could just as easily pass turn 3, then on average Lando could pass 3 tens faster each lap.
Mclaren have several defecits to the RB, it's not an accurate representation to focus only on the one you want to champion. We have a straight line speed deficit, tyre management deficit and DRS deficit too and they are able follow cars without losing downforce in a way we cannot, just to mention the obvious. it is a better car in many ways, to bigger or lesser degrees. If we want to beat them and rival them at every track then we have to get better in many areas.
And turn 3 is a bad example as Lando has always used a different line here to use the kerbs to keep the car pointing in the right direction whilst carrying more speed around the corner as he also does at turn one and several other areas of the track. He throws the car just enough and not too much into the kerb to carry speed but let the kerb stop the car from understeering off the track. Weird, but true, and very effective. If it was understeer he'd manage the car through the corner. It was a choice and nothing at all to do with poor traction and has spoken about it since 2021.
Turn 3 is in red, the same performance as Red Bull, despite the lines, it is the same or similar across different sessions. I really do suggest you wait to see what performance the car has in different circumstances because you are jumping to conclusions, as is anyone who thinks they know this 2 race old car.
Turn 3 is one of the only places we were on a par with Red Bull in actuality...
Lando changed the trajectory in turn 3 precisely because of tire wear. At least that's how I can imagine it. When his tires were fresh, he tried to turn the same way as Max, that is, without breaking the trajectory. I'm not jumping to any hasty conclusions. If you bring telemetry, then lead to one circle. What you brought is a completely different phase of the race, plus Max has soft tires for a fast lap. It's funny to read your argument.
As far as I know in qualifying, Lando used the standard trajectory in the third turn, because it is the fastest. And in the race, he broke the trajectory in order to facilitate the exit of the turn and reduce the wear on the rear tires, it is logical after all. By the way, Max in the race also complained about the rear tires, but he did not change his trajectory throughout the race.
mwillems, I am writing to you personally, but you didn’t read my message above, right? I wrote there that Lando is experiencing understeer due to tire wear.
Well, I decided to watch the Austrian Grand Prix onboard from Max's car: the overall grip and neutral steering in all corners are impressive. Except that when the tires began to go away, oversteer appeared at times in medium-speed and fast corners. Entering turn 3, there was never a single understeer like Lando's. I can only assume from myself that if the McLaren chassis could just as easily pass turn 3, then on average Lando could pass 3 tens faster each lap.
Was it understeer or was it Lando consciously taking a different line through there? I noticed when he was chasing hamilton he was avoiding using the turn 3 curb. Not sure if he did that all race though.
My answer is above what you quoted. Initially, I watched the race from Lando, and only then from Max. Compared, drew conclusions. The balance of both cars changes as the tires wear, this can be clearly seen. But Max oversteers more in medium and fast corners, while Lando oversteers in medium and understeers in slower ones. That's all. Don't think of anything there. When the tires are fresh, both pilots ride quite smoothly and the balance of the chassis is quite good for my not the most keen eye.
McLaren doesn't have much trouble in slow corners that go fast. The problem they have in slow long turns, of which there are many in Hungary. I hope for the best that the update package will still help to solve at least some of these problems, and like everyone else, I will wait for free practices to see what's what. Again, the Hungaroring is not the most fast track and everyone will try to tune the chassis with an eye to qualification. But if, in addition, there is hot weather, then this will be a strong test for the updated McLaren chassis. As an old fan of this Team, I hope for the best.
Well, I decided to watch the Austrian Grand Prix onboard from Max's car: the overall grip and neutral steering in all corners are impressive. Except that when the tires began to go away, oversteer appeared at times in medium-speed and fast corners. Entering turn 3, there was never a single understeer like Lando's. I can only assume from myself that if the McLaren chassis could just as easily pass turn 3, then on average Lando could pass 3 tens faster each lap.
Mclaren have several defecits to the RB, it's not an accurate representation to focus only on the one you want to champion. We have a straight line speed deficit, tyre management deficit and DRS deficit too and they are able follow cars without losing downforce in a way we cannot, just to mention the obvious. it is a better car in many ways, to bigger or lesser degrees. If we want to beat them and rival them at every track then we have to get better in many areas.
And turn 3 is a bad example as Lando has always used a different line here to use the kerbs to keep the car pointing in the right direction whilst carrying more speed around the corner as he also does at turn one and several other areas of the track. He throws the car just enough and not too much into the kerb to carry speed but let the kerb stop the car from understeering off the track. Weird, but true, and very effective. If it was understeer he'd manage the car through the corner. It was a choice and nothing at all to do with poor traction and has spoken about it since 2021.
Turn 3 is in red, the same performance as Red Bull, despite the lines, it is the same or similar across different sessions. I really do suggest you wait to see what performance the car has in different circumstances because you are jumping to conclusions, as is anyone who thinks they know this 2 race old car.
Turn 3 is one of the only places we were on a par with Red Bull in actuality...
Lando changed the trajectory in turn 3 precisely because of tire wear. At least that's how I can imagine it. When his tires were fresh, he tried to turn the same way as Max, that is, without breaking the trajectory. I'm not jumping to any hasty conclusions. If you bring telemetry, then lead to one circle. What you brought is a completely different phase of the race, plus Max has soft tires for a fast lap. It's funny to read your argument.
I explained it's the same for every piece of telemetry and different points, not sure why you reply to a comment saying I have only looked at one point when I clearly said the opposite in that very comment. I couldn't be bothered to post multiple images and if you don't take my word for it go and look for yourself. The car is more than capable at turn three in terms of time and many points and reliably slower everywhere else. I agree that car gets worse as the tyres go, but this is not a low speed issue, this is a tyre management issue.
If you look at the telemetry in qualifying we are much closer to max all over the track and this is because of that issue. In any case, you started by explaining there is a low speed issue and are now saying it is a tyre wear issue at Austria. I agree with the second point, I don't agree that at either Austria or at Silverstone we had any particular issues with slow speed corners, in my opinion.
This does not mean in a different setup and a different set of conditions that the car will not now struggle. Just that there isn't any real evidence that the car will struggle, it's just a lot of strong opinions being thrown around like they are almost fact. The only fact is we don't know yet.
McLaren doesn't have much trouble in slow corners that go fast. The problem they have in slow long turns, of which there are many in Hungary. I hope for the best that the update package will still help to solve at least some of these problems, and like everyone else, I will wait for free practices to see what's what. Again, the Hungaroring is not the most fast track and everyone will try to tune the chassis with an eye to qualification. But if, in addition, there is hot weather, then this will be a strong test for the updated McLaren chassis. As an old fan of this Team, I hope for the best.
To be clear, they certainly DID have these issues, but this is a much different car. Does it still have these issues? It hasn't been tested, we need to wait and see.
You clearly have a good brain for this stuff, just need a little more patience to go with it as it seems the goalpoast change a little each time, from Not great in slow corners to bad tyre management affecting turn 3 to the car being bad in long slow corners.
For the latter, I choose to see how this new configuration and the upcoming update are able to change the handling of the car as I don't think there is any evidence yet of how this car will handle those corners, particularly in the heat. And I've said this from the start, it is a completely new set of challenges. It isn't like Austria and Silverstone and we don't really know what is going to happen.
Lando has downplayed it all again, but he always is downplaying everything so that means little to me. Give it 8-9 days and we will have our answer. I'm not going to say the track is Miami-esque but the challenges at this track are closer to Miami than they are to Austria or Silverstone.
Mwillems, A couple of months ago, I wrote that the team does not have that wild problem at low speeds that they had before, say in 2019-2021. It's true, the chassis does get better at low speeds, but it's clearly visible at low speeds that go fast. In long, slow corners, the problem persists, Stella confirmed in Miami, adding that it is still exacerbated by hot weather. I admit, I read part of your comment diagonally, but this does not negate the fact that Lando changed his driving style based on tire wear. And this is only here, at redbullring, where there was only one practice for setting up an updated aero package. I haven't watched the onboard from Silverstone yet, but I will tomorrow. Lando said that at Silverstone they were very strong in medium speed and fast corners, some of the best. And telemetry generally confirms this. Stella also noted that the speed in slow corners has also become higher, and I'm glad about that. How the Hungaroring will show itself is anyone's guess. Regarding the overall performance, in order to increase the speed, it is required to bring to mind the rear wing, the DRS system. Looking at the qualifying laps of Max and Lando, you can see that where DRS is not activated, they ride about the same and the maximum speeds are comparable.
Last edited by LionsHeart on 14 Jul 2023, 23:51, edited 1 time in total.
