2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

[F1NAC]

What would be the desired Ferrari driver line up from you, Vanja, guys? If you could have a retain a pair of drivers for the next 3 years - who??

Leclerc - Albon .

Albon would be great team player I feel

And that is if Ferrari builds competitive car and sort the --- out of the strategy dept.

[Vanja #66]

I recognise the achievements of these drivers but I'd counter that they only won, a la Bottas/Perez, due to being in dominant cars and having "gifts" from their teams/team mates. Do you rate Bottas or Perez as a top tier driver?

Barrichello was gifted several races - USA, Italy? 2002/2003? The year that they tried to manage the dead heat. Once the title was won then Rubens was allowed victory. He had some great races though - his first win was superb. His 2003 UK race was also brilliant*

Massa was the best matched with Kimi and I agree he was excellent on his day.

The stats can't tell it all though eh?

In my view that's exactly the thing - Sainz had a race-winning and a superior qualifying car and only managed the one win - with a big screw-up from the team with the other driver who was much faster in Silverstone 2022. And those are facts. I'm not happy about it as a fan and I kept quiet on his performance here on forum until about that race last year. There were a lot of disappointing moments from him since Australia, but I wanted to believe he can turn it around and show some of the pace he had in 2021.

Massa, for example, was an F1 driver for 3 years before getting in Ferrari in 2006. He won two races on merit immediately, 3 more next year (also gave up a few wins to Kimi for the team) and 6 races in 2008 (with mechanical DNF from lead in a few more). Sainz was an F1 driver for 7 seasons before getting into a true race-winning car and had the lone controversial win to show for it. I don't think he's any worse as a driver than Massa at all, but for some reason his results are very far from Massa's.

I don't think Leclerc is worse than Massa or Barichello obviously, but even he still needs to prove it. Yes, he was "denied" something like 5 wins by the team in the first half of the season alone last year, but being close and actually achieving it is very different. We know, Massa knows... :'-) (crying-inside-smiley-face)

So overall, to have all of those mistakes with Sainz keep happening this year still is deeply disappointing to be honest. With those 39 points, Ferrari would be P3 and less than 10 points away from Merc in WCC and that's about the reality of car performance so far. There is no pressure at all on Sainz, he is leading Leclerc on points since the first race, he had very good pace in every race (bar Baku, as he also admits himself) and I honestly can't understand what is going on inside his head that makes him overdrive so often.

What would be the desired Ferrari driver line up from you, Vanja, guys? If you could have a retain a pair of drivers for the next 3 years - who??

From my side, I've long since stopped day-dreaming about this, you always end up disappointed In my view, it would be best if Sainz would cut down on his mistakes in races and Vasseur kept them both. Personally, I couldn't care less if either one wins the WDC, as long as it's a Ferrari driver. Tifosi hated Alonso when he won 2 titles and cheered for him with huge passion only a few years later. The same thing would've happened with Hamilton then, even today.

That said, if Ferrari can't deliver with the car and strategy I wouldn't want either of them to stay as I've said already earlier this season, it would be too big of a shame to waste both their talents further.

[Xyz22]

What would be the desired Ferrari driver line up from you, Vanja, guys? If you could have a retain a pair of drivers for the next 3 years - who??

Leclerc - Albon .

Albon would be great team player I feel

And that is if Ferrari builds competitive car and sort the --- out of the strategy dept.

If they don't deliver a good car next year i doubt Leclerc will renew the contract. By good i mean a car good enough to compete for the WDC. The likelihood of that happening, based on recent history, is probably not very high, so i wouldn't be 100% sure that Ferrari will be able to retain Charles past 2024. In that scenario, Sainz would be a great option as a first driver.

[catent]

What is unfortunate about the tenor of the LEC-SAI discussion is that each respective side seems intent on tearing the other driver down.

Ferrari is fortunate to have two quality drivers. I’d rate their lineup ahead of many others on the grid. With the exception of VER, HAM, NOR, ALO, ALB I don’t see many drivers near or better than LEC & SAI. RUS is in the convo but I tend to think he’s a bit overrated at the moment; I’d take any of the above before RUS. Not to take anything from George, though, I just think the above drivers are a bit better at this time.

At any rate, my point is that both of the Ferrari drivers should be celebrated and cheered. In some respects they’re different drivers at a fundamental level, with different aptitudes; Sainz is steady, consistent, good in wet conditions. Leclerc is ultra-talented, rapid, can go toe-to-toe with the best racers in the world when he’s having a good day. I think Leclerc has a lot of headroom to continue to grow/develop/evolve, both in terms of on-track performance and the mental side of things, which is exciting. I also find both LEC & SAI likable and endearing in their own ways.

The other thing I’d say about LEC: on his best qualifying days, he is - in my opinion - the most exciting thing about F1 at the moment. With RBR’s and VER’s complete and utter domination on Sundays, the truly compelling competition generally comes on Saturdays. When Leclerc is hooked up and has a car/setup that agrees with him, he is genuinely spectacular, awe-inspiring, and sublime to watch.

[CMSMJ1]

Really interesting points - it's a tough one indeed.

Albon is a left field choice - but he is certainly a very talented, tough and resilient guy - though he looks like he'd give you his dinner money without murmur. I like him.

Charles is great and I agree that he does have high peak performance.

If the cars and tyres allowed for proper, persistent and agressive races it would be better for us to see these talents in the races instead of the qually.

[codetower]

What would be the desired Ferrari driver line up from you, Vanja, guys? If you could have a retain a pair of drivers for the next 3 years - who??

If you are talking dream lineup... sure, Verstappen/Leclerc. That would be some exciting racing.

But realistically I don't think Ferrari need two #1's, and they don't need a big name like Hamilton/Alonzo. Maybe I'm being biased but I would love to see Leclerc/Giovinazzi. I think Antonio is good enough to be a solid #2. He loves Ferrari, he's recently won in LeMans, I think he would be willing to make some sacrifices to the team, and doesn't seem to have an ego. Given the right car, I think we can win with Leclerc, and having a good #2 would help a lot.

[ringo]

As a mod - guys - bickering is bloody tedious. Play the ball, not the person. Some decent points being made and it doesn't need to be point scoring against your peers on this place.

Thanks @Vanja for the response last page - as a user, not as a moderation team - it is good to have sensible conversation ref the worst Ferrari driver in 25 years?
To be fair to Ferrari, for several of those years they have had some unbalanced teams

Alesi and Berger
Schumi and Irvine
Schumi and Barrichello
Schumi and Massa
Raikkonen and Massa
Massa/Badoer/Fisi and Alonso
Alonso and Kimi
Kimi and Vettel
Vettel and Charles
Charles and Carlos

Is that right? missed anyone? I'd suggest Carlos, for his 2 years in the job has done a decent job against Charles who we all agree is the better driver? (right, is anyone saying that all else being equal that Carlos is going to beat Charles?)
My opinion is that when the no1 seat is driven by the best driver and the team can pull together with it then Ferrari can deliver - if there is too much balance, as there is today, then the team cannot deliver 2x winning cars.

The issues really are that Ferrari cannot get their business together. A significant waste of talented driving skills in these seats.

That list has mostly very competent drivers apart from Badoer. Goes to show that discussing Sainz or Leclerc is really nitpicking. As a neutral in this discussion, from my observation Leclerc has more talent, but Sainz is more complete, and this explains why he is usually closer to the podium. Leclerc is very volatile and the less likely to mount a challenge in a championship.
Let's look back to 2022.. remember that Leclerc took himself out of the championship because of errors in qualifying and race.
All sainz lacks is the ability to get the most out of the tyres with Ferrari and some raw pace. But looking on his history with Mclaren and Renault, he was actually a strong long run pace driver whenever he gets the tyre working.

As long as Leclerc is with Ferrari they will not win a championship. And this is not because he does not have the talent, but he has does not seem to have the emotional intelligence to look inside himself and surgically fix his weaknesses. We see drivers like Hamilton, Alonso, Max, Vettel who continuously improve their driving methodically and calmly. Charles seems to overdo the self critical aspect and bashes himself only to go back and do a similar mistake or get paranoid and bash the team or get grumpy about his teammate.

Until he fixes his head, I would say Sainz is the more likely to bring Ferrari a championship. Just give him a rocket ship that's kind on its tyres.
Leclerc is stronger, but too volatile. With a rocket ship, I can see him driving over the limit when it's not needed, or not biding his time and imploding mentally.

It's an interesting driver pairing, but looking on the score board now, you can kind of see where Sainz, though slower, has used his maturity and strategic brain to be the one with the better results.

[scuderiabrandon]

As a mod - guys - bickering is bloody tedious. Play the ball, not the person. Some decent points being made and it doesn't need to be point scoring against your peers on this place.

Thanks @Vanja for the response last page - as a user, not as a moderation team - it is good to have sensible conversation ref the worst Ferrari driver in 25 years?
To be fair to Ferrari, for several of those years they have had some unbalanced teams

Alesi and Berger
Schumi and Irvine
Schumi and Barrichello
Schumi and Massa
Raikkonen and Massa
Massa/Badoer/Fisi and Alonso
Alonso and Kimi
Kimi and Vettel
Vettel and Charles
Charles and Carlos

Is that right? missed anyone? I'd suggest Carlos, for his 2 years in the job has done a decent job against Charles who we all agree is the better driver? (right, is anyone saying that all else being equal that Carlos is going to beat Charles?)
My opinion is that when the no1 seat is driven by the best driver and the team can pull together with it then Ferrari can deliver - if there is too much balance, as there is today, then the team cannot deliver 2x winning cars.

The issues really are that Ferrari cannot get their business together. A significant waste of talented driving skills in these seats.

That list has mostly very competent drivers apart from Badoer. Goes to show that discussing Sainz or Leclerc is really nitpicking. As a neutral in this discussion, from my observation Leclerc has more talent, but Sainz is more complete, and this explains why he is usually closer to the podium. Leclerc is very volatile and the less likely to mount a challenge in a championship.
Let's look back to 2022.. remember that Leclerc took himself out of the championship because of errors in qualifying and race.
All sainz lacks is the ability to get the most out of the tyres with Ferrari and some raw pace. But looking on his history with Mclaren and Renault, he was actually a strong long run pace driver whenever he gets the tyre working.

As long as Leclerc is with Ferrari they will not win a championship. And this is not because he does not have the talent, but he has does not seem to have the emotional intelligence to look inside himself and surgically fix his weaknesses. We see drivers like Hamilton, Alonso, Max, Vettel who continuously improve their driving methodically and calmly. Charles seems to overdo the self critical aspect and bashes himself only to go back and do a similar mistake or get paranoid and bash the team or get grumpy about his teammate.

Until he fixes his head, I would say Sainz is the more likely to bring Ferrari a championship. Just give him a rocket ship that's kind on its tyres.
Leclerc is stronger, but too volatile. With a rocket ship, I can see him driving over the limit when it's not needed, or not biding his time and imploding mentally.

It's an interesting driver pairing, but looking on the score board now, you can kind of see where Sainz, though slower, has used his maturity and strategic brain to be the one with the better results.

As long as Leclerc is with Ferrari they will not win a championship. And this is not because he does not have the talent, but he has does not seem to have the emotional intelligence to look inside himself and surgically fix his weaknesses

Most recent example of him 'surgically' trying to fix his weaknesses. Went out in FP3 in damp conditions to get a better feel of the tyre in those conditions.

Leclerc is very volatile and the less likely to mount a challenge in a championship.

Please remind who was in a championship battle last season and who was fighting for P5. Charles had 3 out of 4 wins when the cars was a rocketship and kind on its tyres. Should've been 4/4 we all know he got robbed in Silverstone for a teammate that was 0.5s slower/lap.

Not to mention the wins thrown away by his team in Spain, Monaco, Hungary. Aswell has a podium in Baku.



LEC - red
SAI - white

Almost 0.5s a lap quicker after they made the switch when Sainz' engineer said "this pace is not good enough, we invert the cars" I'm paraphrasing but I'm sure you can find the exact radio message somewhere.

Charles seems to overdo the self critical aspect and bashes himself only to go back and do a similar mistake or get paranoid and bash the team or get grumpy about his teammate.

Charles has only thrown the team under the bus once i his 5 years at the team. Canada '23 where he asked for soft tyres when the track was clear dry enough for dry tyres i.e Albon in P1.

Let's look back to 2022.. remember that Leclerc took himself out of the championship because of errors in qualifying and race.

Leclerc only driver errors in a competitive session was Imola - France, the rest of his shortcomings were due to reliability and strategic errors. Difference is LEC was in a chamionship battle, Sainz was hanging on for dear life to outscore the Mercedes guys, who for a good majority of the season had a car 0.8% slower.

We see drivers like Hamilton, Alonso, Max, Vettel who continuously improve their driving methodically and calmly.

“Only with Lewis Hamilton have I seen as much self-criticism as I saw with Charles Leclerc,” Vasseur, now Alfa Romeo team boss, told Speed Week.

“They’re the only drivers I saw in my career who criticised themselves even after winning. Every other driver pats himself on the shoulder. I mean – they won!

“But they both knew that they could have driven better. They were relentless in that way,” Vasseur added.

Take it from someone who has worked closely with both drivers.

It's an interesting driver pairing, but looking on the score board now, you can kind of see where Sainz, though slower, has used his maturity and strategic brain to be the one with the better results.

Wheres Perez in this season? He is in the fastest car and known as 'tyre whisperer'. You still need to be a fast driver to contest championships, your majurtiy alone doesn't win you races

Podium count in 2023

LEC - 2
SAI - 0

Pole Positions

LEC - 2*
SAI - 0

I remind you in 2023 that 2 podiums have been stripped form Leclerc this season due to reliability (BAH) and communication errors (MON). Would you really be having this converstation if the poodium tally was 4-0? The difference is currently 9 points with 2 DNF's in Sainz' favor? Do you really see that as someone who will lead a team to a championship?

If you are going to make such strong statements, at least make a valid argument in case for Sainz. Its always "Sainz is more complete and mature" but there never any evidence to back your statments.

I've entertained this argument enough, it is starting to feel like trolls are just out to re-ignite a completely rinsed out topic with nothing to back themsleves with.

[Shal_Leg16]

As a mod - guys - bickering is bloody tedious. Play the ball, not the person. Some decent points being made and it doesn't need to be point scoring against your peers on this place.

Thanks @Vanja for the response last page - as a user, not as a moderation team - it is good to have sensible conversation ref the worst Ferrari driver in 25 years?
To be fair to Ferrari, for several of those years they have had some unbalanced teams

Alesi and Berger
Schumi and Irvine
Schumi and Barrichello
Schumi and Massa
Raikkonen and Massa
Massa/Badoer/Fisi and Alonso
Alonso and Kimi
Kimi and Vettel
Vettel and Charles
Charles and Carlos

Is that right? missed anyone? I'd suggest Carlos, for his 2 years in the job has done a decent job against Charles who we all agree is the better driver? (right, is anyone saying that all else being equal that Carlos is going to beat Charles?)
My opinion is that when the no1 seat is driven by the best driver and the team can pull together with it then Ferrari can deliver - if there is too much balance, as there is today, then the team cannot deliver 2x winning cars.

The issues really are that Ferrari cannot get their business together. A significant waste of talented driving skills in these seats.

That list has mostly very competent drivers apart from Badoer. Goes to show that discussing Sainz or Leclerc is really nitpicking. As a neutral in this discussion, from my observation Leclerc has more talent, but Sainz is more complete, and this explains why he is usually closer to the podium. Leclerc is very volatile and the less likely to mount a challenge in a championship.
Let's look back to 2022.. remember that Leclerc took himself out of the championship because of errors in qualifying and race.
All sainz lacks is the ability to get the most out of the tyres with Ferrari and some raw pace. But looking on his history with Mclaren and Renault, he was actually a strong long run pace driver whenever he gets the tyre working.

As long as Leclerc is with Ferrari they will not win a championship. And this is not because he does not have the talent, but he has does not seem to have the emotional intelligence to look inside himself and surgically fix his weaknesses. We see drivers like Hamilton, Alonso, Max, Vettel who continuously improve their driving methodically and calmly. Charles seems to overdo the self critical aspect and bashes himself only to go back and do a similar mistake or get paranoid and bash the team or get grumpy about his teammate.

Until he fixes his head, I would say Sainz is the more likely to bring Ferrari a championship. Just give him a rocket ship that's kind on its tyres.
Leclerc is stronger, but too volatile. With a rocket ship, I can see him driving over the limit when it's not needed, or not biding his time and imploding mentally.

It's an interesting driver pairing, but looking on the score board now, you can kind of see where Sainz, though slower, has used his maturity and strategic brain to be the one with the better results.

Dont tell me i just read that …omg. Its ok being a fan but to be this much …..?

[Shal_Leg16]

As a mod - guys - bickering is bloody tedious. Play the ball, not the person. Some decent points being made and it doesn't need to be point scoring against your peers on this place.

Thanks @Vanja for the response last page - as a user, not as a moderation team - it is good to have sensible conversation ref the worst Ferrari driver in 25 years?
To be fair to Ferrari, for several of those years they have had some unbalanced teams

Alesi and Berger
Schumi and Irvine
Schumi and Barrichello
Schumi and Massa
Raikkonen and Massa
Massa/Badoer/Fisi and Alonso
Alonso and Kimi
Kimi and Vettel
Vettel and Charles
Charles and Carlos

Is that right? missed anyone? I'd suggest Carlos, for his 2 years in the job has done a decent job against Charles who we all agree is the better driver? (right, is anyone saying that all else being equal that Carlos is going to beat Charles?)
My opinion is that when the no1 seat is driven by the best driver and the team can pull together with it then Ferrari can deliver - if there is too much balance, as there is today, then the team cannot deliver 2x winning cars.

The issues really are that Ferrari cannot get their business together. A significant waste of talented driving skills in these seats.

That list has mostly very competent drivers apart from Badoer. Goes to show that discussing Sainz or Leclerc is really nitpicking. As a neutral in this discussion, from my observation Leclerc has more talent, but Sainz is more complete, and this explains why he is usually closer to the podium. Leclerc is very volatile and the less likely to mount a challenge in a championship.
Let's look back to 2022.. remember that Leclerc took himself out of the championship because of errors in qualifying and race.
All sainz lacks is the ability to get the most out of the tyres with Ferrari and some raw pace. But looking on his history with Mclaren and Renault, he was actually a strong long run pace driver whenever he gets the tyre working.

As long as Leclerc is with Ferrari they will not win a championship. And this is not because he does not have the talent, but he has does not seem to have the emotional intelligence to look inside himself and surgically fix his weaknesses. We see drivers like Hamilton, Alonso, Max, Vettel who continuously improve their driving methodically and calmly. Charles seems to overdo the self critical aspect and bashes himself only to go back and do a similar mistake or get paranoid and bash the team or get grumpy about his teammate.

Until he fixes his head, I would say Sainz is the more likely to bring Ferrari a championship. Just give him a rocket ship that's kind on its tyres.
Leclerc is stronger, but too volatile. With a rocket ship, I can see him driving over the limit when it's not needed, or not biding his time and imploding mentally.

It's an interesting driver pairing, but looking on the score board now, you can kind of see where Sainz, though slower, has used his maturity and strategic brain to be the one with the better results.

Sainz is in his 9th fooking season in F1 with 172 race starts barely has 1 win to show that too was a gift from Mattia.

Really dont want be mean on the guy just because some of his fans want to oversell him. He is decent driver but from what angle he looks a championship matarial driver to you only you can explain.

Secondly All i could conclude from your essay is your whole argument is based on 1 Narrative that Leclerc makes mistakes and Sainz doesn’t which can be easily countered with numbers. This too many mistakes narrative has already been discussed and debunked here many times. If we really go into the details we can clearly differentiate how many he actually did and how many the team or other factors played in. mistakes proves nothing as long is driver is talented and provided with a fast car.also by your logic RB should have dumped Max back in 2017-18 only.

[codetower]

That list has mostly very competent drivers apart from Badoer. Goes to show that discussing Sainz or Leclerc is really nitpicking. As a neutral in this discussion, from my observation Leclerc has more talent, but Sainz is more complete, and this explains why he is usually closer to the podium. Leclerc is very volatile and the less likely to mount a challenge in a championship.
Let's look back to 2022.. remember that Leclerc took himself out of the championship because of errors in qualifying and race.
All sainz lacks is the ability to get the most out of the tyres with Ferrari and some raw pace. But looking on his history with Mclaren and Renault, he was actually a strong long run pace driver whenever he gets the tyre working.

As long as Leclerc is with Ferrari they will not win a championship. And this is not because he does not have the talent, but he has does not seem to have the emotional intelligence to look inside himself and surgically fix his weaknesses. We see drivers like Hamilton, Alonso, Max, Vettel who continuously improve their driving methodically and calmly. Charles seems to overdo the self critical aspect and bashes himself only to go back and do a similar mistake or get paranoid and bash the team or get grumpy about his teammate.

Until he fixes his head, I would say Sainz is the more likely to bring Ferrari a championship. Just give him a rocket ship that's kind on its tyres.
Leclerc is stronger, but too volatile. With a rocket ship, I can see him driving over the limit when it's not needed, or not biding his time and imploding mentally.

It's an interesting driver pairing, but looking on the score board now, you can kind of see where Sainz, though slower, has used his maturity and strategic brain to be the one with the better results.

I see it differently. First of all Carlos has about 60 more races under his belt than Charles, so naturally he should have more of the maturity and fewer mistakes. But I don't see him as more complete. He is, however, more cautious. He drives more "Safe" than Charles. And for that reason I don't believe he will ever win a championship. All the greats push and if they are not in a great car, they will push too much at times. All of them have done it; Senna, Schumacher, Verstappen. If Sainz were in Verstappen's car 2 years ago, I don't think he would have come close to beating Hamilton. Last year he was in the same car as Leclerc and we didn't see any of the battles with Verstappen that we saw from Leclerc. He's a very good, and very reliable driver... but I don't think he has that championship drive and mentality.

If Charles is in a good car, he wont need to over-drive it. And as seen in the past, he can go toe-to-toe with the best drivers on the grid. Not sure I've seen that from Sainz.

[Vinlarr89]

All this “infighting” seems very, very, pointless. I think we all know Leclerc has got that extra 1% at his disposal, although I would say that this has waned as the season has gone on, and I would say his confidence level has dropped. That being said, peak confidence, he’s one of the few that can challenge Max.

My fear for Ferrari is that the car next year won’t be competitive enough to keep him. Then the following season they will have the car, but not the right driver to get them over the line.

We all ridicule Ferrari, and with some of the calamities they drop, quite rightly so. However, it’s clearly a very complex gap to close or else Mercedes who if we’re being honest are a well oiled machine, would have closed the gap already. Positive signs are that they are moving towards a “different” concept (probably converging on RBR) and I still think if they nail the PU issues they could get competitive for 24.

[CMSMJ1]

I've entertained this argument enough, it is starting to feel like trolls are just out to re-ignite a completely rinsed out topic with nothing to back themsleves with.

There's no need, after posting such a long and detailed post with your thoughts and position to then degrade the quality by calling other posts as trolling... By trolling it yourself.

Come on..

Ringo has his opinion, strongly in favour of Carlos, for which you've you're reply.

I'm sure Ringo isn't going to spend the time to write that in an attempt to troll this thread. That would be silly.

To be fair, I'm not disagreeing entirely with either, Carlos is steady and I think still improving. He has had a unique and varied career in several teams to date and maybe stability is what he needs?
Charles is bloody fast but not yet properly consistent.

[CMSMJ1]

All this “infighting” seems very, very, pointless. I think we all know Leclerc has got that extra 1% at his disposal, although I would say that this has waned as the season has gone on, and I would say his confidence level has dropped. That being said, peak confidence, he’s one of the few that can challenge Max.

My fear for Ferrari is that the car next year won’t be competitive enough to keep him. Then the following season they will have the car, but not the right driver to get them over the line.

We all ridicule Ferrari, and with some of the calamities they drop, quite rightly so. However, it’s clearly a very complex gap to close or else Mercedes who if we’re being honest are a well oiled machine, would have closed the gap already. Positive signs are that they are moving towards a “different” concept (probably converging on RBR) and I still think if they nail the PU issues they could get competitive for 24.

Totally agree

[codetower]

Just a heads-up for the fans here - trolls are always lurking and feeding them never makes things better

Damnit... I got sucked in.

Anyway, I understand Ferrari are bringing a revised version of the high-downforce rear wing this weekend. Should help this weekend with the rear limited track. I like the regular upgrades this year. No word on any suspension upgrades yet.