Leclerc - Albon .
Albon would be great team player I feel
And that is if Ferrari builds competitive car and sort the --- out of the strategy dept.
Leclerc - Albon .
In my view that's exactly the thing - Sainz had a race-winning and a superior qualifying car and only managed the one win - with a big screw-up from the team with the other driver who was much faster in Silverstone 2022. And those are facts. I'm not happy about it as a fan and I kept quiet on his performance here on forum until about that race last year. There were a lot of disappointing moments from him since Australia, but I wanted to believe he can turn it around and show some of the pace he had in 2021.CMSMJ1 wrote: ↑18 Jul 2023, 10:25I recognise the achievements of these drivers but I'd counter that they only won, a la Bottas/Perez, due to being in dominant cars and having "gifts" from their teams/team mates. Do you rate Bottas or Perez as a top tier driver?
Barrichello was gifted several races - USA, Italy? 2002/2003? The year that they tried to manage the dead heat. Once the title was won then Rubens was allowed victory. He had some great races though - his first win was superb. His 2003 UK race was also brilliant*
Massa was the best matched with Kimi and I agree he was excellent on his day.
The stats can't tell it all though eh?
From my side, I've long since stopped day-dreaming about this, you always end up disappointed In my view, it would be best if Sainz would cut down on his mistakes in races and Vasseur kept them both. Personally, I couldn't care less if either one wins the WDC, as long as it's a Ferrari driver. Tifosi hated Alonso when he won 2 titles and cheered for him with huge passion only a few years later. The same thing would've happened with Hamilton then, even today.
If they don't deliver a good car next year i doubt Leclerc will renew the contract. By good i mean a car good enough to compete for the WDC. The likelihood of that happening, based on recent history, is probably not very high, so i wouldn't be 100% sure that Ferrari will be able to retain Charles past 2024. In that scenario, Sainz would be a great option as a first driver.
If you are talking dream lineup... sure, Verstappen/Leclerc. That would be some exciting racing.
That list has mostly very competent drivers apart from Badoer. Goes to show that discussing Sainz or Leclerc is really nitpicking. As a neutral in this discussion, from my observation Leclerc has more talent, but Sainz is more complete, and this explains why he is usually closer to the podium. Leclerc is very volatile and the less likely to mount a challenge in a championship.CMSMJ1 wrote: ↑17 Jul 2023, 10:55As a mod - guys - bickering is bloody tedious. Play the ball, not the person. Some decent points being made and it doesn't need to be point scoring against your peers on this place.
Thanks @Vanja for the response last page - as a user, not as a moderation team - it is good to have sensible conversation ref the worst Ferrari driver in 25 years?
To be fair to Ferrari, for several of those years they have had some unbalanced teams
Alesi and Berger
Schumi and Irvine
Schumi and Barrichello
Schumi and Massa
Raikkonen and Massa
Massa/Badoer/Fisi and Alonso
Alonso and Kimi
Kimi and Vettel
Vettel and Charles
Charles and Carlos
Is that right? missed anyone? I'd suggest Carlos, for his 2 years in the job has done a decent job against Charles who we all agree is the better driver? (right, is anyone saying that all else being equal that Carlos is going to beat Charles?)
My opinion is that when the no1 seat is driven by the best driver and the team can pull together with it then Ferrari can deliver - if there is too much balance, as there is today, then the team cannot deliver 2x winning cars.
The issues really are that Ferrari cannot get their business together. A significant waste of talented driving skills in these seats.
ringo wrote: ↑18 Jul 2023, 16:47That list has mostly very competent drivers apart from Badoer. Goes to show that discussing Sainz or Leclerc is really nitpicking. As a neutral in this discussion, from my observation Leclerc has more talent, but Sainz is more complete, and this explains why he is usually closer to the podium. Leclerc is very volatile and the less likely to mount a challenge in a championship.CMSMJ1 wrote: ↑17 Jul 2023, 10:55As a mod - guys - bickering is bloody tedious. Play the ball, not the person. Some decent points being made and it doesn't need to be point scoring against your peers on this place.
Thanks @Vanja for the response last page - as a user, not as a moderation team - it is good to have sensible conversation ref the worst Ferrari driver in 25 years?
To be fair to Ferrari, for several of those years they have had some unbalanced teams
Alesi and Berger
Schumi and Irvine
Schumi and Barrichello
Schumi and Massa
Raikkonen and Massa
Massa/Badoer/Fisi and Alonso
Alonso and Kimi
Kimi and Vettel
Vettel and Charles
Charles and Carlos
Is that right? missed anyone? I'd suggest Carlos, for his 2 years in the job has done a decent job against Charles who we all agree is the better driver? (right, is anyone saying that all else being equal that Carlos is going to beat Charles?)
My opinion is that when the no1 seat is driven by the best driver and the team can pull together with it then Ferrari can deliver - if there is too much balance, as there is today, then the team cannot deliver 2x winning cars.
The issues really are that Ferrari cannot get their business together. A significant waste of talented driving skills in these seats.
Let's look back to 2022.. remember that Leclerc took himself out of the championship because of errors in qualifying and race.
All sainz lacks is the ability to get the most out of the tyres with Ferrari and some raw pace. But looking on his history with Mclaren and Renault, he was actually a strong long run pace driver whenever he gets the tyre working.
As long as Leclerc is with Ferrari they will not win a championship. And this is not because he does not have the talent, but he has does not seem to have the emotional intelligence to look inside himself and surgically fix his weaknesses. We see drivers like Hamilton, Alonso, Max, Vettel who continuously improve their driving methodically and calmly. Charles seems to overdo the self critical aspect and bashes himself only to go back and do a similar mistake or get paranoid and bash the team or get grumpy about his teammate.
Until he fixes his head, I would say Sainz is the more likely to bring Ferrari a championship. Just give him a rocket ship that's kind on its tyres.
Leclerc is stronger, but too volatile. With a rocket ship, I can see him driving over the limit when it's not needed, or not biding his time and imploding mentally.
It's an interesting driver pairing, but looking on the score board now, you can kind of see where Sainz, though slower, has used his maturity and strategic brain to be the one with the better results.
Most recent example of him 'surgically' trying to fix his weaknesses. Went out in FP3 in damp conditions to get a better feel of the tyre in those conditions.As long as Leclerc is with Ferrari they will not win a championship. And this is not because he does not have the talent, but he has does not seem to have the emotional intelligence to look inside himself and surgically fix his weaknesses
Leclerc is very volatile and the less likely to mount a challenge in a championship.
Charles seems to overdo the self critical aspect and bashes himself only to go back and do a similar mistake or get paranoid and bash the team or get grumpy about his teammate.
Let's look back to 2022.. remember that Leclerc took himself out of the championship because of errors in qualifying and race.
We see drivers like Hamilton, Alonso, Max, Vettel who continuously improve their driving methodically and calmly.
Wheres Perez in this season? He is in the fastest car and known as 'tyre whisperer'. You still need to be a fast driver to contest championships, your majurtiy alone doesn't win you racesIt's an interesting driver pairing, but looking on the score board now, you can kind of see where Sainz, though slower, has used his maturity and strategic brain to be the one with the better results.
ringo wrote: ↑18 Jul 2023, 16:47That list has mostly very competent drivers apart from Badoer. Goes to show that discussing Sainz or Leclerc is really nitpicking. As a neutral in this discussion, from my observation Leclerc has more talent, but Sainz is more complete, and this explains why he is usually closer to the podium. Leclerc is very volatile and the less likely to mount a challenge in a championship.CMSMJ1 wrote: ↑17 Jul 2023, 10:55As a mod - guys - bickering is bloody tedious. Play the ball, not the person. Some decent points being made and it doesn't need to be point scoring against your peers on this place.
Thanks @Vanja for the response last page - as a user, not as a moderation team - it is good to have sensible conversation ref the worst Ferrari driver in 25 years?
To be fair to Ferrari, for several of those years they have had some unbalanced teams
Alesi and Berger
Schumi and Irvine
Schumi and Barrichello
Schumi and Massa
Raikkonen and Massa
Massa/Badoer/Fisi and Alonso
Alonso and Kimi
Kimi and Vettel
Vettel and Charles
Charles and Carlos
Is that right? missed anyone? I'd suggest Carlos, for his 2 years in the job has done a decent job against Charles who we all agree is the better driver? (right, is anyone saying that all else being equal that Carlos is going to beat Charles?)
My opinion is that when the no1 seat is driven by the best driver and the team can pull together with it then Ferrari can deliver - if there is too much balance, as there is today, then the team cannot deliver 2x winning cars.
The issues really are that Ferrari cannot get their business together. A significant waste of talented driving skills in these seats.
Let's look back to 2022.. remember that Leclerc took himself out of the championship because of errors in qualifying and race.
All sainz lacks is the ability to get the most out of the tyres with Ferrari and some raw pace. But looking on his history with Mclaren and Renault, he was actually a strong long run pace driver whenever he gets the tyre working.
As long as Leclerc is with Ferrari they will not win a championship. And this is not because he does not have the talent, but he has does not seem to have the emotional intelligence to look inside himself and surgically fix his weaknesses. We see drivers like Hamilton, Alonso, Max, Vettel who continuously improve their driving methodically and calmly. Charles seems to overdo the self critical aspect and bashes himself only to go back and do a similar mistake or get paranoid and bash the team or get grumpy about his teammate.
Until he fixes his head, I would say Sainz is the more likely to bring Ferrari a championship. Just give him a rocket ship that's kind on its tyres.
Leclerc is stronger, but too volatile. With a rocket ship, I can see him driving over the limit when it's not needed, or not biding his time and imploding mentally.
It's an interesting driver pairing, but looking on the score board now, you can kind of see where Sainz, though slower, has used his maturity and strategic brain to be the one with the better results.
Sainz is in his 9th fooking season in F1 with 172 race starts barely has 1 win to show that too was a gift from Mattia.ringo wrote: ↑18 Jul 2023, 16:47That list has mostly very competent drivers apart from Badoer. Goes to show that discussing Sainz or Leclerc is really nitpicking. As a neutral in this discussion, from my observation Leclerc has more talent, but Sainz is more complete, and this explains why he is usually closer to the podium. Leclerc is very volatile and the less likely to mount a challenge in a championship.CMSMJ1 wrote: ↑17 Jul 2023, 10:55As a mod - guys - bickering is bloody tedious. Play the ball, not the person. Some decent points being made and it doesn't need to be point scoring against your peers on this place.
Thanks @Vanja for the response last page - as a user, not as a moderation team - it is good to have sensible conversation ref the worst Ferrari driver in 25 years?
To be fair to Ferrari, for several of those years they have had some unbalanced teams
Alesi and Berger
Schumi and Irvine
Schumi and Barrichello
Schumi and Massa
Raikkonen and Massa
Massa/Badoer/Fisi and Alonso
Alonso and Kimi
Kimi and Vettel
Vettel and Charles
Charles and Carlos
Is that right? missed anyone? I'd suggest Carlos, for his 2 years in the job has done a decent job against Charles who we all agree is the better driver? (right, is anyone saying that all else being equal that Carlos is going to beat Charles?)
My opinion is that when the no1 seat is driven by the best driver and the team can pull together with it then Ferrari can deliver - if there is too much balance, as there is today, then the team cannot deliver 2x winning cars.
The issues really are that Ferrari cannot get their business together. A significant waste of talented driving skills in these seats.
Let's look back to 2022.. remember that Leclerc took himself out of the championship because of errors in qualifying and race.
All sainz lacks is the ability to get the most out of the tyres with Ferrari and some raw pace. But looking on his history with Mclaren and Renault, he was actually a strong long run pace driver whenever he gets the tyre working.
As long as Leclerc is with Ferrari they will not win a championship. And this is not because he does not have the talent, but he has does not seem to have the emotional intelligence to look inside himself and surgically fix his weaknesses. We see drivers like Hamilton, Alonso, Max, Vettel who continuously improve their driving methodically and calmly. Charles seems to overdo the self critical aspect and bashes himself only to go back and do a similar mistake or get paranoid and bash the team or get grumpy about his teammate.
Until he fixes his head, I would say Sainz is the more likely to bring Ferrari a championship. Just give him a rocket ship that's kind on its tyres.
Leclerc is stronger, but too volatile. With a rocket ship, I can see him driving over the limit when it's not needed, or not biding his time and imploding mentally.
It's an interesting driver pairing, but looking on the score board now, you can kind of see where Sainz, though slower, has used his maturity and strategic brain to be the one with the better results.
I see it differently. First of all Carlos has about 60 more races under his belt than Charles, so naturally he should have more of the maturity and fewer mistakes. But I don't see him as more complete. He is, however, more cautious. He drives more "Safe" than Charles. And for that reason I don't believe he will ever win a championship. All the greats push and if they are not in a great car, they will push too much at times. All of them have done it; Senna, Schumacher, Verstappen. If Sainz were in Verstappen's car 2 years ago, I don't think he would have come close to beating Hamilton. Last year he was in the same car as Leclerc and we didn't see any of the battles with Verstappen that we saw from Leclerc. He's a very good, and very reliable driver... but I don't think he has that championship drive and mentality.ringo wrote: ↑18 Jul 2023, 16:47
That list has mostly very competent drivers apart from Badoer. Goes to show that discussing Sainz or Leclerc is really nitpicking. As a neutral in this discussion, from my observation Leclerc has more talent, but Sainz is more complete, and this explains why he is usually closer to the podium. Leclerc is very volatile and the less likely to mount a challenge in a championship.
Let's look back to 2022.. remember that Leclerc took himself out of the championship because of errors in qualifying and race.
All sainz lacks is the ability to get the most out of the tyres with Ferrari and some raw pace. But looking on his history with Mclaren and Renault, he was actually a strong long run pace driver whenever he gets the tyre working.
As long as Leclerc is with Ferrari they will not win a championship. And this is not because he does not have the talent, but he has does not seem to have the emotional intelligence to look inside himself and surgically fix his weaknesses. We see drivers like Hamilton, Alonso, Max, Vettel who continuously improve their driving methodically and calmly. Charles seems to overdo the self critical aspect and bashes himself only to go back and do a similar mistake or get paranoid and bash the team or get grumpy about his teammate.
Until he fixes his head, I would say Sainz is the more likely to bring Ferrari a championship. Just give him a rocket ship that's kind on its tyres.
Leclerc is stronger, but too volatile. With a rocket ship, I can see him driving over the limit when it's not needed, or not biding his time and imploding mentally.
It's an interesting driver pairing, but looking on the score board now, you can kind of see where Sainz, though slower, has used his maturity and strategic brain to be the one with the better results.
There's no need, after posting such a long and detailed post with your thoughts and position to then degrade the quality by calling other posts as trolling... By trolling it yourself.scuderiabrandon wrote: ↑18 Jul 2023, 17:08
I've entertained this argument enough, it is starting to feel like trolls are just out to re-ignite a completely rinsed out topic with nothing to back themsleves with.
Totally agreeVinlarr89 wrote: ↑18 Jul 2023, 19:33All this “infighting” seems very, very, pointless. I think we all know Leclerc has got that extra 1% at his disposal, although I would say that this has waned as the season has gone on, and I would say his confidence level has dropped. That being said, peak confidence, he’s one of the few that can challenge Max.
My fear for Ferrari is that the car next year won’t be competitive enough to keep him. Then the following season they will have the car, but not the right driver to get them over the line.
We all ridicule Ferrari, and with some of the calamities they drop, quite rightly so. However, it’s clearly a very complex gap to close or else Mercedes who if we’re being honest are a well oiled machine, would have closed the gap already. Positive signs are that they are moving towards a “different” concept (probably converging on RBR) and I still think if they nail the PU issues they could get competitive for 24.
Damnit... I got sucked in.