2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[chrisc90]

Most certainly not. The decision to not build engines is above him. That's a multi hundred million dollar question for the owner of RB, not Horner. Toto has no such excuse. They are in prime position to be competitive, but they just aren't.

Does toto ask the other 66% shareholders their opinion too?

What would he need to ask them? They already have an operation with all the necessary resources to be competitive. State of the art factory and WT, check. Experienced engineers who have built winning cars, check. Their own state of the art engine operation with a competitive engine, check. Full funding and sponsorship, check. Competitive drivers, check.

So exactly the same as red bull? But RB need to ask the superiors?

Anyhow, massively off topic there

[Cs98]

Most certainly not. The decision to not build engines is above him. That's a hundred million dollar question for the owner of RB, not Horner.

It was always a consideration. As depicted here by the owner in 2010:

But we are on stand-by for an interesting partnership. And even the idea of developing our own engine, I think, is no longer so absurd

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/red- ... 26028.html


If team bosses are taking credit for what the techies do, but strategic decisions are left to the money men like Mateschitz, who are left uncredited to a large extent, perhaps the credit ought to go to the guys who write the cheques.
It would be wrong of course, but that emphasises my point.

So? He didn't sign off on anything.

"“We're staying with Renault,”

"“But we are on stand-by for an interesting partnership. And even the idea of developing our own engine, I think, is no longer so absurd,” he added, hinting that F1 might switch to a cheaper and more road-relevant engine starting 2012, which would help Red Bull to become also engine builders in the Great Circus.

The engine formula we got was neither cheap nor particularly road relevant. We got no RB engine.

The team boss is ultimately accountable... for the things they are in control over. That is why we give them credit... for the things they are in control over. RB was always sharp on the chassi, pit crew, strategy, marketing etc... which they were in control over.

Toto has no such excuse.

[Cs98]

Does toto ask the other 66% shareholders their opinion too?

What would he need to ask them? They already have an operation with all the necessary resources to be competitive. State of the art factory and WT, check. Experienced engineers who have built winning cars, check. Their own state of the art engine operation with a competitive engine, check. Full funding and sponsorship, check. Competitive drivers, check.

So exactly the same as red bull? But RB need to ask the superiors?

Anyhow, massively off topic there

Eh, no. We're talking about the beginning of the TH-era. I'm quite sure RB didn't have a state of the art engine operation with a competitive engine.

The point is simple, Toto has no excuses for their underperformance.

[Just_a_fan]

What would he need to ask them? They already have an operation with all the necessary resources to be competitive. State of the art factory and WT, check. Experienced engineers who have built winning cars, check. Their own state of the art engine operation with a competitive engine, check. Full funding and sponsorship, check. Competitive drivers, check.

So exactly the same as red bull? But RB need to ask the superiors?

Anyhow, massively off topic there

Eh, no. We're talking about the beginning of the TH-era. I'm quite sure RB didn't have a state of the art engine operation with a competitive engine.

The point is simple, Toto has no excuses for their underperformance.

The team isn't blaming anyone - they've held their hands up and said "we got it wrong" and now they're working their way back. No-one has been thrown under the bus. Toto has stood in front of the cameras and taken the criticism. That's an example of good leadership.

[Cs98]

So exactly the same as red bull? But RB need to ask the superiors?

Anyhow, massively off topic there

Eh, no. We're talking about the beginning of the TH-era. I'm quite sure RB didn't have a state of the art engine operation with a competitive engine.

The point is simple, Toto has no excuses for their underperformance.

The team isn't blaming anyone - they've held their hands up and said "we got it wrong" and now they're working their way back. No-one has been thrown under the bus. Toto has stood in front of the cameras and taken the criticism. That's an example of good leadership.

I'm not criticising his public handling of the situation, I'm criticising the performance his leadership has led to. A team with those facilities should not be slower than their own customers. They should not be this far behind the WCC battle for two years running, both in terms of pace and points. He still has time, but there needs to be serious progress in the coming 12 months or I am sure questions will start to be asked.

[ValeVida46]

The engine formula we got was neither cheap nor particularly road relevant. We got no RB engine.

The team boss is ultimately accountable... for the things they are in control over. That is why we give them credit... for the things they are in control over. RB was always sharp on the chassi, pit crew, strategy, marketing etc... which they were in control over.

Toto has no such excuse.

You can't just make up a metric of relevance to an energy drinks company.
Owning a racing team is no more relevant than producing it's own engines relative to sponsoring a team.
Want context?
They own 2 racing teams, no other team can afford that. But costs?

As an aside, Toto doesn't need an excuse. Thus far, he's shown the ability to manage his team within the budget cap.

[AR3-GP]

Are there upgrades this weekend?

[Cs98]

The engine formula we got was neither cheap nor particularly road relevant. We got no RB engine.

The team boss is ultimately accountable... for the things they are in control over. That is why we give them credit... for the things they are in control over. RB was always sharp on the chassi, pit crew, strategy, marketing etc... which they were in control over.

Toto has no such excuse.

You can't just make up a metric of relevance to an energy drinks company.
Owning a racing team is no more relevant than producing it's own engines relative to sponsoring a team.
Want context?
They own 2 racing teams, no other team can afford that. But costs?

As an aside, Toto doesn't need an excuse. Thus far, he's shown the ability to manage his team within the budget cap.

I won't even pretend to understand what the relevance of that comment is to the point I'm making. I'll just leave it at this:

RB had a fatal flaw of not being an engine manufacturer as the sport turned into an engine Formula. Ownership didn't want to spend the money becoming a PU manufacturer, tough luck. They made their bed and had to lay in it for 7 years. That's what a lack of investment will lead to.

What's the fatal flaw of Merc now? There's no lack of facilites, no lack of resources, no lack of personnel, drivers... Yet the results are seriously lacking for two years running. Sooner or later Toto has to be held accountable. And cost cap jokes will not help him explain why his own customers are now consistently beating him. There are simply no good excuses.

[ValeVida46]

I won't even pretend to understand what the relevance of that comment is to the point I'm making. I'll just leave it at this:

RB had a fatal flaw of not being an engine manufacturer as the sport turned into an engine Formula. Ownership didn't want to spend the money becoming a PU manufacturer, tough luck. They made their bed and had to lay in it for 7 years. That's what a lack of investment will lead to.

What's the fatal flaw of Merc now? There's no lack of facilites, no lack of resources, no lack of personnel, drivers... Yet the results are seriously lacking for two years running. Sooner or later Toto has to be held accountable. And cost cap jokes will not help him explain why his own customers are now consistently beating him. There are simply no good excuses.

When those customers are now operating with the same budget, what magical wand do you propose be waved to beat their customers more convincingly? Because they are beating their customers.
Also the pertinence is to your comment that Toto should be held accountable on a performance basis.
Yet I look at the table and don't see Mercedes below any customers. So it can only be that they aren't beating Red Bull. Well I guess that is an interesting parameter to judge a team boss by.

Horner who as a team boss should have made the argument for Red Bull engines more clearly. He failed to do so.
And when I look at 2014-18 it was all Renault's fault from the man who should've made the argument more powerfully to Mateschitz. So he must bear some responsibility for not having the ability to make that case clear. That's if we are to be fair.

Perhaps 9 new team bosses next year will close up the grid. Perhaps not.

[denyall]

I won't even pretend to understand what the relevance of that comment is to the point I'm making. I'll just leave it at this:

RB had a fatal flaw of not being an engine manufacturer as the sport turned into an engine Formula. Ownership didn't want to spend the money becoming a PU manufacturer, tough luck. They made their bed and had to lay in it for 7 years. That's what a lack of investment will lead to.

What's the fatal flaw of Merc now? There's no lack of facilites, no lack of resources, no lack of personnel, drivers... Yet the results are seriously lacking for two years running. Sooner or later Toto has to be held accountable. And cost cap jokes will not help him explain why his own customers are now consistently beating him. There are simply no good excuses.

When those customers are now operating with the same budget, what magical wand do you propose be waved to beat their customers more convincingly? Because they are beating their customers.
Also the pertinence is to your comment that Toto should be held accountable on a performance basis.
Yet I look at the table and don't see Mercedes below any customers. So it can only be that they aren't beating Red Bull. Well I guess that is an interesting parameter to judge a team boss by.

Horner who as a team boss should have made the argument for Red Bull engines more clearly. He failed to do so.
And when I look at 2014-18 it was all Renault's fault from the man who should've made the argument more powerfully to Mateschitz. So he must bear some responsibility for not having the ability to make that case clear. That's if we are to be fair.

Perhaps 9 new team bosses next year will close up the grid. Perhaps not.

I think the other poster was right, people fear Toto and Mercedes, hence all this malarkey about accountability and performance and no excuses. I'd argue that by doing everything in house Merc gives themselves no scape goat for their performance except themselves. They haven't been shy about placing blame on their own shoulders either.

Totally should be fired tho

[ValeVida46]

I think the other poster was right, people fear Toto and Mercedes, hence all this malarkey about accountability and performance and no excuses. I'd argue that by doing everything in house Merc gives themselves no scape goat for their performance except themselves. They haven't been shy about placing blame on their own shoulders either.

Totally should be fired tho

Bizarre isn't it.

But again, it's a skewing of accountability.

Toto: We need to do better.
Detractors: Fire him!

Horner: All Renault's fault.
Detractors: This is fine.

[Cs98]

I won't even pretend to understand what the relevance of that comment is to the point I'm making. I'll just leave it at this:

RB had a fatal flaw of not being an engine manufacturer as the sport turned into an engine Formula. Ownership didn't want to spend the money becoming a PU manufacturer, tough luck. They made their bed and had to lay in it for 7 years. That's what a lack of investment will lead to.

What's the fatal flaw of Merc now? There's no lack of facilites, no lack of resources, no lack of personnel, drivers... Yet the results are seriously lacking for two years running. Sooner or later Toto has to be held accountable. And cost cap jokes will not help him explain why his own customers are now consistently beating him. There are simply no good excuses.

When those customers are now operating with the same budget, what magical wand do you propose be waved to beat their customers more convincingly? Because they are beating their customers.
Also the pertinence is to your comment that Toto should be held accountable on a performance basis.
Yet I look at the table and don't see Mercedes below any customers. So it can only be that they aren't beating Red Bull. Well I guess that is an interesting parameter to judge a team boss by.

Horner who as a team boss should have made the argument for Red Bull engines more clearly. He failed to do so.
And when I look at 2014-18 it was all Renault's fault from the man who should've made the argument more powerfully to Mateschitz. So he must bear some responsibility for not having the ability to make that case clear. That's if we are to be fair.

Perhaps 9 new team bosses next year will close up the grid. Perhaps not.

Those other teams are using an engine designed for the Merc, one of them is using a rear suspension designed for the Merc, and to better effect by the looks of it in the case of AMR. Merc's facilities are still better due to years and years of massive spending pre-cap. They have their own WT. Those advantages don't just disappear because a budget cap is in place now. But you know all of this already. So no "magic wand" is necessary, how about just making the most of what that massive organisation has to offer in terms of facilities and resources.

What I said was that they were consistently being beaten, which is just true. AMR has been just as fast if not faster on aggregate over the season, and if not for Stroll Jr they'd be ahead in the standings most likely.

Horner who as a team boss should have made the argument for Red Bull engines more clearly. He failed to do so.

Ultimately Mateschitz decides what to do with his own money. It's easy to say Horner should have convinced him to spend half a billion on an engine plant, but ultimately that's not up to him. Toto doesn't have to deal with that, all the pieces are in place and have been since well before he got there. He just can't get it to work right now. Sooner or later he needs to be held accountable. Not saying he should be fired ASAP, but there needs to be some show of progress over the next year.

[ab_f1]

I won't even pretend to understand what the relevance of that comment is to the point I'm making. I'll just leave it at this:

RB had a fatal flaw of not being an engine manufacturer as the sport turned into an engine Formula. Ownership didn't want to spend the money becoming a PU manufacturer, tough luck. They made their bed and had to lay in it for 7 years. That's what a lack of investment will lead to.

What's the fatal flaw of Merc now? There's no lack of facilites, no lack of resources, no lack of personnel, drivers... Yet the results are seriously lacking for two years running. Sooner or later Toto has to be held accountable. And cost cap jokes will not help him explain why his own customers are now consistently beating him. There are simply no good excuses.

When those customers are now operating with the same budget, what magical wand do you propose be waved to beat their customers more convincingly? Because they are beating their customers.
Also the pertinence is to your comment that Toto should be held accountable on a performance basis.
Yet I look at the table and don't see Mercedes below any customers. So it can only be that they aren't beating Red Bull. Well I guess that is an interesting parameter to judge a team boss by.

Horner who as a team boss should have made the argument for Red Bull engines more clearly. He failed to do so.
And when I look at 2014-18 it was all Renault's fault from the man who should've made the argument more powerfully to Mateschitz. So he must bear some responsibility for not having the ability to make that case clear. That's if we are to be fair.

Perhaps 9 new team bosses next year will close up the grid. Perhaps not.

Those other teams are using an engine designed for the Merc, one of them is using a rear suspension designed for the Merc, and to better effect by the looks of it in the case of AMR. Merc's facilities are still better due to years and years of massive spending pre-cap. They have their own WT. Those advantages don't just disappear because a budget cap is in place now. But you know all of this already. So no "magic wand" is necessary, how about just making the most of what that massive organisation has to offer in terms of facilities and resources.

What I said was that they were consistently being beaten, which is just true. AMR has been just as fast if not faster on aggregate over the season, and if not for Stroll Jr they'd be ahead in the standings most likely.

Horner who as a team boss should have made the argument for Red Bull engines more clearly. He failed to do so.

Ultimately Mateschitz decides what to do with his own money. It's easy to say Horner should have convinced him to spend half a billion on an engine plant, but ultimately that's not up to him. Toto doesn't have to deal with that, all the pieces are in place and have been since well before he got there. He just can't get it to work right now. Sooner or later he needs to be held accountable. Not saying he should be fired ASAP, but there needs to be some show of progress over the next year.

So you prefer Ferrari model?

How many times we have heard Merc ready to leave. Wouldn't it be to credit of Toto that whole entity is independent of parent support? Merc literally has free publicity for few years now.

Its ironic that people credit his success to predecessor and challenging times to him.

While at RB:
1. Money decisions out of Horner's hand
2. Design is Newey
3. Hiring is Marko
4. Driving is Max

But still he is great...

[ValeVida46]

What I said was that they were consistently being beaten, which is just true. AMR has been just as fast if not faster on aggregate over the season, and if not for Stroll Jr they'd be ahead in the standings most likely.

Red Bull were beaten over a season by Torro Rosso, and had by some margin a smaller budget.
Christian Horner resided as boss of Red Bull, so he should be gone by your standard.

I see you are also excusing the Aston performance due to a second driver, the son of the owner.
I assume we can squeeze even more caveats to make a skewed point.

Ultimately Mateschitz decides what to do with his own money. It's easy to say Horner should have convinced him to spend half a billion on an engine plant, but ultimately that's not up to him. Toto doesn't have to deal with that, all the pieces are in place and have been since well before he got there. He just can't get it to work right now. Sooner or later he needs to be held accountable. Not saying he should be fired ASAP, but there needs to be some show of progress over the next year.

They didn't need to spend anywhere near 500m for an engine plant. Cosworth were sold for 30m in 2005, spun off as Mahle powertrains by Forsyth and and Kalkhoven, then and had some struggles in 2009/10 at around the time Mateschitz made his comments. So this was easily a sub 100M investment to enter the fray that was not pushed cogently.
The parity of Mercedes and Red Bull on an opposite correlative trajectory should not be lost here.
Mercedes had an engine and no team of their own, Red Bull had a team and no engine of their own.
One team got there through opportunism, and the other turned down opportunities as they were happy for that discipline to be dictated to them by a supplier/partner.

Repeatedly, Horner should be gone using the same hyper critical parameters you mete out for Wolff.
From being beaten by the under funded Torro Rosso, to being cosy with a supplied engine.
Or as @ab_f1 points out, you can have the revolving door Ferrari model...which clearly...well you go do the research on that.
For the record I think both have flaws but are both very good at managing their team, as well as winding each other up.

[Cs98]

What I said was that they were consistently being beaten, which is just true. AMR has been just as fast if not faster on aggregate over the season, and if not for Stroll Jr they'd be ahead in the standings most likely.

Red Bull were beaten over a season by Torro Rosso, and had by some margin a smaller budget.
Christian Horner resided as boss of Red Bull, so he should be gone by your standard.

I see you are also excusing the Aston performance due to a second driver, the son of the owner.
I assume we can squeeze even more caveats to make a skewed point.

Ultimately Mateschitz decides what to do with his own money. It's easy to say Horner should have convinced him to spend half a billion on an engine plant, but ultimately that's not up to him. Toto doesn't have to deal with that, all the pieces are in place and have been since well before he got there. He just can't get it to work right now. Sooner or later he needs to be held accountable. Not saying he should be fired ASAP, but there needs to be some show of progress over the next year.

They didn't need to spend anywhere near 500m for an engine plant. Cosworth were sold for 30m in 2005, spun off as Mahle powertrains by Forsyth and and Kalkhoven, then and had some struggles in 2009/10 at around the time Mateschitz made his comments. So this was easily a sub 100M investment to enter the fray that was not pushed cogently.
The parity of Mercedes and Red Bull on an opposite correlative trajectory should not be lost here.
Mercedes had an engine and no team of their own, Red Bull had a team and no engine of their own.
One team got there through opportunism, and the other turned down opportunities as they were happy for that discipline to be dictated to them by a supplier/partner.

Repeatedly, Horner should be gone using the same hyper critical parameters you mete out for Wolff.
From being beaten by the under funded Torro Rosso, to being cosy with a supplied engine.
Or as @ab_f1 points out, you can have the revolving door Ferrari model...which clearly...well you go do the research on that.
For the record I think both have flaws but are both very good at managing their team, as well as winding each other up.

Well obviously I don't hold Aston to the same standard as Merc. They've never won a CC, they're a customer team. Merc has all the resources and experience. They are not the same and shouldn't be judged as such. Well at least up until now. In 2026 with their new factory online, new WT, and Honda onboard they jump up to the big boy category.

Red Bull were beaten over a season by Torro Rosso, and had by some margin a smaller budget.
Christian Horner resided as boss of Red Bull, so he should be gone by your standard.

You mean when they were running the same car for both teams and TR had a better engine? And TR had the up and coming driver who was about to be promoted? That season? I see you omitted those caveats to make a skewed point

But no, I wouldn't have fired Horner for one season of bad performance then, just as I wouldn't fire Wolff right now. But if Wolff leads them to a third straight year of sub-par performance, then we might need to start asking questions. Because he has no excuses to perform this poorly relative to customers and RB.

They didn't need to spend anywhere near 500m for an engine plant. Cosworth were sold for 30m in 2005, spun off as Mahle powertrains by Forsyth and and Kalkhoven, then and had some struggles in 2009/10 at around the time Mateschitz made his comments. So this was easily a sub 100M investment to enter the fray that was not pushed cogently.

Sub 100 million dollar investment to start an engine company and then produce a competitive V6-TH with an MGU-H (which was basically unprecedented at the time). I think not.