2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[Dazed1]

You know what we need? A good Red Bull pissing contest in the Merc team thread!

[AR3-GP]

You know what we need? A good Red Bull pissing contest in the Merc team thread!

I also think it's good to focus on Mercedes team members in the Mercedes team thread.

[AR3-GP]

Red Bull were beaten over a season by Torro Rosso, and had by some margin a smaller budget.
Christian Horner resided as boss of Red Bull, so he should be gone by your standard.

The RB topic is here: viewtopic.php?t=30844

This is the Mercedes team thread.

[ValeVida46]

Red Bull were beaten over a season by Torro Rosso, and had by some margin a smaller budget.
Christian Horner resided as boss of Red Bull, so he should be gone by your standard.

The RB topic is here: viewtopic.php?t=30844

This is the Mercedes team thread.

When there are calls for Toto's head it's useful to offer perspective on a team manager who went through the grinder and didn't get sacked and went on to win titles as a team manager.
But appreciate the nod.

[AR3-GP]

Red Bull were beaten over a season by Torro Rosso, and had by some margin a smaller budget.
Christian Horner resided as boss of Red Bull, so he should be gone by your standard.

The RB topic is here: viewtopic.php?t=30844

This is the Mercedes team thread.

When there are calls for Toto's head it's useful to offer perspective on a team manager who went through the grinder and didn't get sacked and went on to win titles as a team manager.
But appreciate the nod.

To me it makes more sense to look at the history of the team in question. Norbert Haug had seasons like 2022/2023 and got sacked. It's logical to question if it's in the team's culture to sack leadership when there is a drought of success. Mike Elliot was recently "reassigned".

I'm not sure I understand what RB has to do with any of this. Toto Wolff is not Christian Horner. Toto Wolf's bosses are not Christian Horner's bosses. Brackley's shareholders are not the shareholders of Milton Keynes. It is illogical to reason that both organizations will do the same thing.

In any case, I suspect that another 1-2 years only fighting for 2nd best and Toto may decide to step down himself. That's my impression of him. He seems now like someone who is interested in narrating a biography or teaching classes at Harvard. Someone who perhaps achieved all he wanted and is now a bit burned out by it all.

[Farnborough]

One thing is certain from my view, they haven't got power output superiority now over the competitor teans to play with as existing for so many years.

Use of that "party mode" and "hammer time" at high output mode is long gone.

Reaching parity at least will have to be done with more subtle ingenuity, quite possible but a very different balance now.

They need to get their heads down and get on with it

[ValeVida46]

The RB topic is here: viewtopic.php?t=30844

This is the Mercedes team thread.

When there are calls for Toto's head it's useful to offer perspective on a team manager who went through the grinder and didn't get sacked and went on to win titles as a team manager.
But appreciate the nod.

To me it makes more sense to look at the history of the team in question. Norbert Haug had seasons like 2022/2023 and got sacked. It's logical to question if it's in the team's culture to sack leadership when there is a drought of success. Mike Elliot was recently "reassigned".

I'm not sure I understand what RB has to do with any of this. Toto Wolff is not Christian Horner. Toto Wolf's bosses are not Christian Horner's bosses. Brackley's shareholders are not the shareholders of Milton Keynes. It is illogical to reason that both organizations will do the same thing.

In any case, I suspect that another 1-2 years only fighting for 2nd best and Toto may decide to step down himself. That's my impression of him. He seems now like someone who is interested in narrating a biography or teaching classes at Harvard. Someone who perhaps achieved all he wanted and is now a bit burned out by it all.

You split the minutiae and deduct what you will.
Every team boss has the same responsibility. Their team.
Whether they answer to a board or a billionaire is moot because the questions will be near enough identical when it goes pete tong.
If you prefer to view it in microcosmic detail, you will miss the forest for the trees.

As for Toto, I get the opposite impression. But that's what makes forum interesting.
As for Haug, he made promises he couldn't keep unfortunately. A by-product of the RRA not being respected due to 2 teams leaving FOTA, which left a downsized Mercedes squad at a deficit.
I believe there are threads that go into that in great detail here.

[AR3-GP]

When there are calls for Toto's head it's useful to offer perspective on a team manager who went through the grinder and didn't get sacked and went on to win titles as a team manager.
But appreciate the nod.

To me it makes more sense to look at the history of the team in question. Norbert Haug had seasons like 2022/2023 and got sacked. It's logical to question if it's in the team's culture to sack leadership when there is a drought of success. Mike Elliot was recently "reassigned".

I'm not sure I understand what RB has to do with any of this. Toto Wolff is not Christian Horner. Toto Wolf's bosses are not Christian Horner's bosses. Brackley's shareholders are not the shareholders of Milton Keynes. It is illogical to reason that both organizations will do the same thing.

In any case, I suspect that another 1-2 years only fighting for 2nd best and Toto may decide to step down himself. That's my impression of him. He seems now like someone who is interested in narrating a biography or teaching classes at Harvard. Someone who perhaps achieved all he wanted and is now a bit burned out by it all.

Whether they answer to a board or a billionaire is moot because the questions will be near enough identical when it goes pete tong.

Guenther Steiner has done nothing for Haas but cause embarrassment, but his bosses are happy with him. Mattia Binotto was sacked by his bosses. Cyril Abiteboul was sacked from Renault.

F1 teams are not all the same. In any case, we would best stick to Mercedes personnel here as you can see it can quickly develop 2 pages of non-Mercedes content if we do not.

[AeroDynamic]

Red Bull were beaten over a season by Torro Rosso, and had by some margin a smaller budget.
Christian Horner resided as boss of Red Bull, so he should be gone by your standard.

The RB topic is here: viewtopic.php?t=30844

This is the Mercedes team thread.

Isn't this just cherry picking a line or two from a lengthy post that used the quoted statement to make a point to underline how skewed opinions are against the tp?

Seems that the cherry picking is taking place to avoid addressing the really obvious point of the original post which exposes how skewed some of the points of view in here are.

A couple of lines from a lengthy post is enough to call it off topic? this seems like a way of backing out. The post is simply challenging the basis of the opinions in here coming from the fans of other teams.

[AR3-GP]

Most of this post (^^@georgekyr post, above^^) is off topic for this thread, budget cap breach (potential) and car comparison threads are where the rest should be discussed

@Aerodynamic

Moderators posted a warning about staying on topic today, and the next 3 pages have more content about Christian Horner than anyone who actually works at Mercedes.

If one disagrees with the idea that Toto Wolff may be under pressure and/or risk being sacked, then it would make sense to have a discussion about his positive contributions during this time and how they secure his role in the time.

[denyall]

Most of this post (^^@georgekyr post, above^^) is off topic for this thread, budget cap breach (potential) and car comparison threads are where the rest should be discussed

@Aerodynamic

Moderators posted a warning about staying on topic today, and the next 3 pages after his post have more content about Christian Horner than anyone who actually works at Mercedes.

That's because a bunch of folks are in from the RB and other garages calling for Toto's head. Can't head over the the other team threads to post any reply and can't post a counterpoint here because it's off topic.

I guess we should just sit quietly and take it...

[AR3-GP]

Most of this post (^^@georgekyr post, above^^) is off topic for this thread, budget cap breach (potential) and car comparison threads are where the rest should be discussed

@Aerodynamic

Moderators posted a warning about staying on topic today, and the next 3 pages after his post have more content about Christian Horner than anyone who actually works at Mercedes.

That's because a bunch of folks are in from the RB and other garages calling for Toto's head. Can't head over the the other team threads to post any reply and can't post a counterpoint here because it's off topic.

I guess we should just sit quietly and take it...

If you disagree with the idea that Toto Wolf's job is at risk, then an on-topic response would be to discuss his positive contributions during this time and why that makes him the perfect man for this role going forward. Would you agree that this is sensible? Whether someone at a different team is fit for their own job belongs in that team's thread.

[ringo]

I think it's because they fear a Merc resurgence and what it might mean for RB's and Max's dominance.

One can hope

Very unlikely for a lot of fans really.

I think most people would want 2021-escque style battles between drivers and teams. Pure dominance from a single team or driver is a little 'dis-heartening' for most.

Well yes, without budget cap breaches, poor racing with impunity, and meddling. There is a lot about 2021 that seems good because it was forced to be spiced up because of external forces. The complexion of 2021 would be very different without the above factors. The most fans want I guess is just closer cars speedwise. That should put everything else into place. I do not think 2021 should be seen as a benchmark or goal sporting wise.
Saying that, I do not think Mercedes have any obligation to be the challengers and face up to leaving the sport if they cannot.
Let's see how the season unfolds. P-2 is not so bad, and I think we still have some good upgrades coming to at least be within 3 tenths per lap in the race. So far the upgrades seem very conservative and redbulls secrets are slowly being revealed and adopted by other teams with good results.
Toto leaving F-1 is a very weak request. Very successful F-1 career so far, and even with 2022 and 2021 results. Might as well ask Ferrari to quit F-1 while at it, because Toto and company have been more successful since he took over the team.

[denyall]

@Aerodynamic

Moderators posted a warning about staying on topic today, and the next 3 pages after his post have more content about Christian Horner than anyone who actually works at Mercedes.

That's because a bunch of folks are in from the RB and other garages calling for Toto's head. Can't head over the the other team threads to post any reply and can't post a counterpoint here because it's off topic.

I guess we should just sit quietly and take it...

If you disagree with the idea that Toto Wolf's job is at risk, then an on-topic response would be to discuss his positive contributions during this time and why that makes him the perfect man for this role going forward. Would you agree that this is sensible? Whether someone at a different team is fit for their own job belongs in that team's thread.

Fighting for Toto's job in the comments is a losing battle. As many have pointed out, calls for his head are in bad faith and often hypocritical. What's acceptable for some is forbidden for Toto. What's normal for other teams and TP is apparently unforgivable. There is no argument to be made here that will be met with a reasonable response because the people calling for his head don't actually care about the team at all except to watch it burn at the stake.

If you believe that one man can lead the team to first in the WCC and WDC every single year ad infinitum, I have a property in Atlantis to sell you.

But to stay on topic and answer your question, the fear of Darth Toto is strong and that's why I think he's perfect for TP.

[AR3-GP]

That's because a bunch of folks are in from the RB and other garages calling for Toto's head. Can't head over the the other team threads to post any reply and can't post a counterpoint here because it's off topic.

I guess we should just sit quietly and take it...

If you disagree with the idea that Toto Wolf's job is at risk, then an on-topic response would be to discuss his positive contributions during this time and why that makes him the perfect man for this role going forward. Would you agree that this is sensible? Whether someone at a different team is fit for their own job belongs in that team's thread.

Fighting for Toto's job in the comments is a losing battle. As many have pointed out, calls for his head are in bad faith and often hypocritical. What's acceptable for some is forbidden for Toto. What's normal for other teams and TP is apparently unforgivable. There is no argument to be made here that will be met with a reasonable response because the people calling for his head don't actually care about the team at all except to watch it burn at the stake.

If you believe that one man can lead the team to first in the WCC and WDC every single year ad infinitum, I have a property in Atlantis to sell you.

But to stay on topic and answer your question, the fear of Darth Toto is strong and that's why I think he's perfect for TP.

The problem I see is framing a discussion by having winners and losers of that discussion. You are not responsible for winning, and you are not a loser either. You are someone who shared an opinion.

If people write comments which violate the forum rules, you may report that post. Otherwise, there's not really anything one can do if people write things which one is not interested in or one disagrees with.