2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

[wuzak]

Of course. They can't recover enough with just the rear, so they need to run the ICE against the MGU in recovery mode.
So more fuel burn. Withe the front wheel recovery they wouldn't need to mess with that.

Only if the front MGU doesn't deploy also.

Whether you deploy 350 kW on four or two wheels is not relevant.

I think it is.

More to the point, deploying at the same power as is recovered.

Recovering power from the front wheels won't make the problem of burning fuel go away - it will reduce it some, but not eliminate it.

Having a difference between the power of recovery and deployment will stretch the time that power can be deployed, and further reduce the need to burn fuel.

If front recovery was to be allowed, it would make sense to have 600kW recovery/350kW deployment like in FE.

[Moctecus]

This is what Pat Symonds told AMuS about the proposed front recovery:

"According to our calculations, it would have taken 18 kilograms extra for two 130-kilowatt generators (176 hp) including half-shafts, a differential and the wiring. We would have tapped the remaining 130 kilowatts from the back. With this solution, we could have reduced the tank capacity from 110 to 70 kilograms and practically completely dispensed with fuel burning for energy generation."
[source]

[mzso]

I think it is.

More to the point, deploying at the same power as is recovered.

Recovering power from the front wheels won't make the problem of burning fuel go away - it will reduce it some, but not eliminate it.

Having a difference between the power of recovery and deployment will stretch the time that power can be deployed, and further reduce the need to burn fuel.

If front recovery was to be allowed, it would make sense to have 600kW recovery/350kW deployment like in FE.

That's just an arbitrary opinion. It is a fact however that there's a lot more energy to be had if you recover from the front as well, at least double in the worst case scenario, but in most circumstances a lot more.
Someone calculated before here on F1T that the real wheels would lock up at a rather high speed with 350kW recovery, so during much of the braking you can't utilize near as much. Not so much the front wheels, which obviously have far more force pushing them down during braking and always bear the brunt of the braking force.

On the other hand during deployment it's easy to use up the stored energy. (Especially with the ICE regressing in power) The main concern is not to use up too much and end up with a power deficiency towards the end of the lap.

This is what Pat Symonds told AMuS about the proposed front recovery:

"According to our calculations, it would have taken 18 kilograms extra for two 130-kilowatt generators (176 hp) including half-shafts, a differential and the wiring. We would have tapped the remaining 130 kilowatts from the back. With this solution, we could have reduced the tank capacity from 110 to 70 kilograms and practically completely dispensed with fuel burning for energy generation."

Indeed. That comment form him was one of the things I had in my mind.

[wuzak]

This is what Pat Symonds told AMuS about the proposed front recovery:

"According to our calculations, it would have taken 18 kilograms extra for two 130-kilowatt generators (176 hp) including half-shafts, a differential and the wiring. We would have tapped the remaining 130 kilowatts from the back. With this solution, we could have reduced the tank capacity from 110 to 70 kilograms and practically completely dispensed with fuel burning for energy generation."
[source]

I can't see how that works.

Granted, his scenario has more MGU power (390kW vs 350kW), but there are very few tracks where that would allow 9MJ of energy recovery in braking.

It would either need lift and coast (how exciting) or burning fuel at part throttle to recharge the battery.

Plus, it is another 20kg on the weight.

[wuzak]

According to Brembo, brakes are only used at Spa for 14.5s.

Assuming that only braking is used for recovery, and deployment is at full power, the ERS will be lugged around Spa for over 1 minute not doing anything.

Assuming other means are used to recover the allowed maximum of 9MJ, and the ERS is deployed at maximum power, the ERS will be dead weight for 50s+.

[saviour stivala]

How about giving the new formula a chance. Am saying this as I well remember the introduction of the 2014 back then new formula and the predictions at that time.

[Cs98]

How about giving the new formula a chance. Am saying this as I well remember the introduction of the 2014 back then new formula and the predictions at that time.

The criticism was of a more emotional kind back then. DNA of the sport, sound, that kind of thing. Purely looking from a performance perspective, the power numbers made perfect sense and were even a step up from the V8s. The same cannot be said for 2026. The numbers don't add up to anything remotely close to where we are now.

[Zynerji]

How about giving the new formula a chance. Am saying this as I well remember the introduction of the 2014 back then new formula and the predictions at that time.

I'm torn on this.

I want to give all the benefit of the doubt that it will be amazing.

Then I realize we could just have 3.0l DI 19000RPM v10s running synth fuel.

[aleks_ader]

How about giving the new formula a chance. Am saying this as I well remember the introduction of the 2014 back then new formula and the predictions at that time.

I'm torn on this.

I want to give all the benefit of the doubt that it will be amazing.

Then I realize we could just have 3.0l DI 19000RPM v10s running synth fuel.

i almost nuted ROFL.

[saviour stivala]

How about giving the new formula a chance. Am saying this as I well remember the introduction of the 2014 back then new formula and the predictions at that time.

The criticism was of a more emotional kind back then. DNA of the sport, sound, that kind of thing. Purely looking from a performance perspective, the power numbers made perfect sense and were even a step up from the V8s. The same cannot be said for 2026. The numbers don't add up to anything remotely close to where we are now.

Not what I remember back then. What I remember was certainly a hell of a lot of gloom and doom concerning the 'impossible' of being able to harvest and deploy what was permissible that plus the impossibility of doing a race distance with the fuel load and flow allowed. Just have a look at the formula results achieved today against all that was pushed out back then.

[Cs98]

How about giving the new formula a chance. Am saying this as I well remember the introduction of the 2014 back then new formula and the predictions at that time.

The criticism was of a more emotional kind back then. DNA of the sport, sound, that kind of thing. Purely looking from a performance perspective, the power numbers made perfect sense and were even a step up from the V8s. The same cannot be said for 2026. The numbers don't add up to anything remotely close to where we are now.

Not what I remember back then. What I remember was certainly a hell of a lot of gloom and doom concerning the 'impossible' of being able to harvest and deploy what was permissible that plus the impossibility of doing a race distance with the fuel load and flow allowed. Just have a look at the formula results achieved today against all that was pushed out back then.

Many people didn't understand the complicated nature of the MGU-H and the efficiency it allowed for. It was basically unprecedented tech at that time. This isn't the case for 2026. There's no great complexity to the regulations, no MGU-H. It's just a simple turbo hybrid with a weak ICE.

[mzso]

How about giving the new formula a chance. Am saying this as I well remember the introduction of the 2014 back then new formula and the predictions at that time.

I'm torn on this.

I want to give all the benefit of the doubt that it will be amazing.

Then I realize we could just have 3.0l DI 19000RPM v10s running synth fuel.

We could also put Coswort DFVs in the cars, but why would we do either?

[Zynerji]

How about giving the new formula a chance. Am saying this as I well remember the introduction of the 2014 back then new formula and the predictions at that time.

I'm torn on this.

I want to give all the benefit of the doubt that it will be amazing.

Then I realize we could just have 3.0l DI 19000RPM v10s running synth fuel.

We could also put Coswort DFVs in the cars, but why would we do either?

Fan appreciation? Does that matter anymore?

[Hoffman900]

How about giving the new formula a chance. Am saying this as I well remember the introduction of the 2014 back then new formula and the predictions at that time.

I'm torn on this.

I want to give all the benefit of the doubt that it will be amazing.

Then I realize we could just have 3.0l DI 19000RPM v10s running synth fuel.

DI doesn’t work at those piston speeds.

In fact, Cosworth with the T50 chucks the DI and goes to port injection on the S model, which allows them a whole point more of compression due to the additional charge cooling, for the same octane.

[Zynerji]

How about giving the new formula a chance. Am saying this as I well remember the introduction of the 2014 back then new formula and the predictions at that time.

I'm torn on this.

I want to give all the benefit of the doubt that it will be amazing.

Then I realize we could just have 3.0l DI 19000RPM v10s running synth fuel.

DI doesn’t work at those piston speeds.

In fact, Cosworth with the T50 chucks the DI and goes to port injection on the S model, which allows them a whole point more of compression due to the additional charge cooling, for the same octane.

Thats pretty interesting. Thanks for that info!