2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[AR3-GP]

The too many cooks argument specifically, in relation to Mercedes, goes against historical precedent.
Geoff Willis, Bob Bell, Loic Serra, John Owen, Mike Elliott, David Jeffrey, Jarrod Murphy and the almighty Aldo Costa were all the chefs. Most were brought in around 2012, which led to the W04 jump, and then the W05.

And if you go ahead and look at the team threads from 2012, an eerily reminiscent theme emerges.

There are 2 things here. One, it was Brawn who hired them. Someone like him had absolute clarity on who is going to do what and why. Two, Those were no cost cap days. They could splash as much money as they had. I don't think Toto has either vision or that sort of clarity to put people in different positions where they all feel important and happy to do everything in their capacity to meet that vision. Obviously, cost cap doesn't allow such extravaganza anymore. Finally, too many cooks always spoil the broth. It's a reality, unless the ring master of the circus has the complete control on people and proceedings, which is extremely rare. I doubt that someone who cannot hold a headset in place under emotional duress, can be that ring master.

I have to back Vale Vida on this! Again didn't you see Mercedes 2014 proving that too many cooks is not an issue. They weren't making broth after all!!

What's happening with Mercedes now is brain drain and others catching up.

The cooks in the kitchen comment goes hand in hand with the cost cap comment. You can’t afford them all.

[ValeVida46]

The cooks in the kitchen comment goes hand in hand with the cost cap comment. You can’t afford them all.

Nor did they have them all. Allison, Costa and Bell weren't headhunted. They left or were fired before Mercedes were an option. That team of 2014- didn't build itself overnight. Again, if you go back to 2011/12 Merc team threads, there was a gluttony of doom posting when the team was working away in the background for the breakthrough 2013 season.

And as we have a structure that has remained largely the same since 2011, Geoff Willis, Allison, Elliot, Owen and Rob Thomas are all in the chef roles which has worked well since 2013. Loic Serra has recently been poached by Ferrari, which leaves a space to be filled.


Besides, multiple staff have left for other teams for money Mercedes weren't prepared to pay to retain their services.
The net cost to those teams will also leave scope for movement in the opposite direction, as we have seen with all teams including Red Bull. Only, these things don't happen overnight despite the demands of F1tech gurus.

[ValeVida46]

Did you read the comment before responding? I find your posts difficult to read as there is so much off roading. Very little on the point. I don't know if that's probably just me. Current economics of cost cap and limited development processes (wind tunnel/CFD etc.,) doesn't allow having 5 or 6 chiefs of any kind in an F1 team. It's that simple.

Probably more constructive without the insults. My reply was specific to the comment.

James Allison, Geoff Willis, Mike Elliott, John Owens, David Jeffrey, Jarrod Murphy, Ashely Way, Giocomo Tortora
and up to a month ago Loic Serra. All chiefs. Today.

"doesnt allow having 5 or 6 chiefs" dispelled with facts. Nothing personal. No offroading. Easy to understand.

Read the first 5 words and started listing cooks from ten years ago. Refutation complete.

Only the above list is from this year

[Cs98]

Did you read the comment before responding? I find your posts difficult to read as there is so much off roading. Very little on the point. I don't know if that's probably just me. Current economics of cost cap and limited development processes (wind tunnel/CFD etc.,) doesn't allow having 5 or 6 chiefs of any kind in an F1 team. It's that simple.

Probably more constructive without the insults. My reply was specific to the comment.

James Allison, Geoff Willis, Mike Elliott, John Owens, David Jeffrey, Jarrod Murphy, Ashely Way, Giocomo Tortora
and up to a month ago Loic Serra. All chiefs. Today.

"doesnt allow having 5 or 6 chiefs" dispelled with facts. Nothing personal. No offroading. Easy to understand.

Read the first 5 words and started listing cooks from ten years ago. Refutation complete.

Only the above list is from this year

Who cares if they are all from this year? Every team on the grid can present a long list of "chiefs". Doesn't mean you can go out and get a guy like Fallows without making space internally due to the cap. Coming back to the origin of this discussion, instead of this massive offroad adventure.

[ValeVida46]

Who cares if they are all from this year? Every team on the grid can present a long list of "chiefs". Doesn't mean you can go out and get a guy like Fallows without making space internally due to the cap. Coming back to the origin of this discussion, instead of this massive offroad adventure.

I have given a list of Senior technical Mercedes AMG F1 management. This is part of the team thread and pertinent to who does what, specifically in relation to assertions that there are too many chefs/you can't have this many chefs in a budget cap.
When presented with the list of chiefs, you want to present a massive offroad adventure into whether they are indeed chiefs at all.
Let's keep it Mercedes and their staff/results/drivers/structure, instead of questioning whether a head of aero is a head of aero, lets agree to disagree and move on.

[chrisc90]

Toto reflects on the season so far.

[Willy]

James Allison, Geoff Willis, Mike Elliott, John Owens, David Jeffrey, Jarrod Murphy, Ashely Way, Giocomo Tortora
and up to a month ago Loic Serra. All chiefs. Today.

"doesnt allow having 5 or 6 chiefs" dispelled with facts. Nothing personal. No offroading. Easy to understand.

Mike Elliott has been deposed, showing he doesn't lead anything and is there as a long time team member. Not sure if he counts as "chef".

Geoff Willis - Out of F1 project. Head of digital engineering? No idea what he does.

David Jeffrey - Aerodynamics Resource Manager? A manager? Never heard him before.
Ashley Way - Deputy Chief Designer - Never heard of him either. What the heck John Owen does as Chief Designer or Director of Car Design?
If you want to go ahead and list even support staff, that would be fine.

[Just_a_fan]

David Jeffrey - Aerodynamics Resource Manager? A manager? Never heard him before.

He's been at the team since the start, having been with Brawn, Honda and BAR before that. Started with BAe doing aerospace stuff. Did his PhD in race car aerodynamics when he was with BAR. Moved up through the ranks.

Ashley Way - Deputy Chief Designer - Never heard of him either.

He's a mechanical engineer and has worked with AP Racing, Williams (touring cars), McLaren before Mercedes. He'll be in charge of non-aero stuff.

What the heck John Owen does as Chief Designer or Director of Car Design?

He will be ensuring the various sub-systems are brought together and match the design ethos they are following. He's been an aerodynamicist for over 20 years. He's been on the podium on occasions.

The fact that most people have never heard of them isn't an issue for them or the team. They probably aren't interested in cult-worship of the type that Newey finds himself subjected to.

[PlatinumZealot]

John Owen doesn't like the spotlight, but he's EXTREMELY underrated by the media, and extremely sought after by other teams.

[Just_a_fan]

John Owen doesn't like the spotlight, but he's EXTREMELY underrated by the media, and extremely sought after by other teams.

And he, like the others mentioned, was in the role during the winning years. So it's not like they're a team of never-been-theres with no clue about developing a winning car.

[AR3-GP]

John Owen doesn't like the spotlight, but he's EXTREMELY underrated by the media, and extremely sought after by other teams.

And he, like the others mentioned, was in the role during the winning years. So it's not like they're a team of never-been-theres with no clue about developing a winning car.

You could say the same thing about the staff from the winning years for several other constructors.

Anyway I'm not sure where the discussion is going. They are 2nd/3rd ish performance wise so it's better than most other teams in the sport and there aren't going to be mass sackings.

The original comment ( from me) was about how Merc would not be able to sign technical directors of another team without first letting their own people go, due to (1) budget and (2) a senior leader from one team isn't going to take a lower role at Merc, which just goes back to having to get rid of people first, neither of which Merc look to be doing right now.

[Just_a_fan]

John Owen doesn't like the spotlight, but he's EXTREMELY underrated by the media, and extremely sought after by other teams.

And he, like the others mentioned, was in the role during the winning years. So it's not like they're a team of never-been-theres with no clue about developing a winning car.

You could say the same thing about the staff from the winning years for several other constructors.

Anyway I'm not sure where the discussion is going. They are 2nd/3rd ish performance wise so it's better than most other teams in the sport and there aren't going to be mass sackings.

The original comment ( from me) was about how Merc would not be able to sign technical directors of another team without first letting their own people go, due to (1) budget and (2) a senior leader from one team isn't going to take a lower role at Merc, which just goes back to having to get rid of people first, neither of which Merc look to be doing right now.

The thing is - they don't need to sign a new TD. They chose a blind alley which they are now working their way out of. They were rear end of the grid often last year. Now they're decently front end. Next is aim is to get back to winning potential at most tracks.

[PlatinumZealot]

John Owen doesn't like the spotlight, but he's EXTREMELY underrated by the media, and extremely sought after by other teams.

And he, like the others mentioned, was in the role during the winning years. So it's not like they're a team of never-been-theres with no clue about developing a winning car.

You could say the same thing about the staff from the winning years for several other constructors.

Anyway I'm not sure where the discussion is going. They are 2nd/3rd ish performance wise so it's better than most other teams in the sport and there aren't going to be mass sackings.

The original comment ( from me) was about how Merc would not be able to sign technical directors of another team without first letting their own people go, due to (1) budget and (2) a senior leader from one team isn't going to take a lower role at Merc, which just goes back to having to get rid of people first, neither of which Merc look to be doing right now.

Well, how much does a poached tech chief cost?

If he can save the team a few front wing upgrades and some windtunnel hours, he would have covered his salary.

[AR3-GP]

And he, like the others mentioned, was in the role during the winning years. So it's not like they're a team of never-been-theres with no clue about developing a winning car.

You could say the same thing about the staff from the winning years for several other constructors.

Anyway I'm not sure where the discussion is going. They are 2nd/3rd ish performance wise so it's better than most other teams in the sport and there aren't going to be mass sackings.

The original comment ( from me) was about how Merc would not be able to sign technical directors of another team without first letting their own people go, due to (1) budget and (2) a senior leader from one team isn't going to take a lower role at Merc, which just goes back to having to get rid of people first, neither of which Merc look to be doing right now.

Well, how much does a poached tech chief cost?

If he can save the team a few front wing upgrades and some windtunnel hours, he would have covered his salary.

Sensible sounding in theory, but rarely so straightforward in practice.

James Allison once worked for Ferrari...

[Big Tea]

And he, like the others mentioned, was in the role during the winning years. So it's not like they're a team of never-been-theres with no clue about developing a winning car.

You could say the same thing about the staff from the winning years for several other constructors.

Anyway I'm not sure where the discussion is going. They are 2nd/3rd ish performance wise so it's better than most other teams in the sport and there aren't going to be mass sackings.

The original comment ( from me) was about how Merc would not be able to sign technical directors of another team without first letting their own people go, due to (1) budget and (2) a senior leader from one team isn't going to take a lower role at Merc, which just goes back to having to get rid of people first, neither of which Merc look to be doing right now.

Well, how much does a poached tech chief cost?

If he can save the team a few front wing upgrades and some windtunnel hours, he would have covered his salary.

He would have to fully understand the car he comes from and the gar he goes to for this to be effective though.
He could pass on the theory of a particular part, but someone with long time understanding would need to integrate it, if it is even possible