2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[Willy]

AMuS reporting that F1 is investigating removing DRS usage in qualifying. Maybe first signs of a RB nerf for next season



https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... s-mclaren/

Is that an area of problem? RB19 is starting from mid pack and winning comfortably. So what's the benefit of removing DRS in quali?

[organic]

Harming rb's quali pace might not change the outcomes dramatically but it would make the races more interesting if RB were always starting 4-8th rather than 1st-ish. And making the races more interesting is obviously desirable for them

[chrisc90]

Thing is, compare race pace with max and everyone else. Max had no drs for most of spa and was still a second a lap faster.

Turning off drs is pointless. Might aswell go back to original tyre allowance but mandate what compound in each session

[Farnborough]

They just put a new transmission in to, I'd guess, hopefully get to season end without the need to consider another penalty and the risk that entails.

To run less drmand than all out ability does seem like a "use your head" type scenario, and certainly if they want to stack the odds in going for longest win, all races in a season, record.

Depends how much that matters to them. Also in regard to cost cap / damage contingency/ balancing against update component cost. Controlled well in one part ultimately throws potential into another stream of cist to benefit.

These must be discussed in strategy meetings, emphasis during the heat of competition would be normal, don't ya think ?

[Rikhart]

In terms of eau rouge/raidilion lifts in order to reduce plank wear I'd say B-sport's channel theory holds water.
Sprint race offers a another good insight. After overtaking Piastri Verstappen is just cruising around, gaining a second per lap, but even so GP still comes on radio and and out of nowhere issues the infamous "use your head" instruction. There's only like 5 or 6 laps remaining and there' just no way they can possibly lose the race in normal circumstances, but still GP felt like he needed point it out. After that Verstappen starts doing even bigger lifts already on entry into the eau rouge/raidilion sequence and no scrapping can be heard (down 20 kmh compared to "normal" laps). Piastri behind him is flatout and gaining 3 tenths as a result.

He said that because max started burning the softs right from the first lap, pushing for fastest lap. It was tyre life related.

[organic]

In terms of eau rouge/raidilion lifts in order to reduce plank wear I'd say B-sport's channel theory holds water.
Sprint race offers a another good insight. After overtaking Piastri Verstappen is just cruising around, gaining a second per lap, but even so GP still comes on radio and and out of nowhere issues the infamous "use your head" instruction. There's only like 5 or 6 laps remaining and there' just no way they can possibly lose the race in normal circumstances, but still GP felt like he needed point it out. After that Verstappen starts doing even bigger lifts already on entry into the eau rouge/raidilion sequence and no scrapping can be heard (down 20 kmh compared to "normal" laps). Piastri behind him is flatout and gaining 3 tenths as a result.

He said that because max started burning the softs right from the first lap, pushing for fastest lap. It was tyre life related.

Nobody would lift in Eau rouge for tyre life. Nobody has and nobody will because you bleed time down the entire kemmel straight. Plenty of other corners on the track where you can tyre save just as much and not lose nearly as much time.

Every race GP is asking Max not to overuse tyres at the start of stints and for fastest lap pushes. But at Spa the "use your head" radio message was said to max over 30 times in the Grand prix and also said in the sprint. It was highly unusual and not the usual tyre life management

This has already been stated earlier in the thread and we're at risk of veering off-topic / into race discussion.

Something about the car means they had to protect it through eau rouge. Not tyre related

[Rikhart]

In terms of eau rouge/raidilion lifts in order to reduce plank wear I'd say B-sport's channel theory holds water.
Sprint race offers a another good insight. After overtaking Piastri Verstappen is just cruising around, gaining a second per lap, but even so GP still comes on radio and and out of nowhere issues the infamous "use your head" instruction. There's only like 5 or 6 laps remaining and there' just no way they can possibly lose the race in normal circumstances, but still GP felt like he needed point it out. After that Verstappen starts doing even bigger lifts already on entry into the eau rouge/raidilion sequence and no scrapping can be heard (down 20 kmh compared to "normal" laps). Piastri behind him is flatout and gaining 3 tenths as a result.

He said that because max started burning the softs right from the first lap, pushing for fastest lap. It was tyre life related.

Nobody would lift in Eau rouge for tyre life. Nobody has and nobody will because you bleed time down the entire kemmel straight. Plenty of other corners on the track where you can tyre save just as much and not lose nearly as much time.

Every race GP is asking Max not to overuse tyres at the start of stints and for fastest lap pushes. But at Spa the "use your head" radio message was said to max over 30 times in the Grand prix and also said in the sprint. It was highly unusual and not the usual tyre life management

This has already been stated earlier in the thread and we're at risk of veering off-topic / into race discussion.

Something about the car means they had to protect it through eau rouge. Not tyre related

I just meant the "use your head" comment, it came after complaining he used the tyres too much on their first laps, that is all.

[Juzh]

Disabling DRS in qualifying all things being equal I'd say nerfs RB by at least 2 tenths. It's not a problem now with such an advantage in race trim, but they're still being directly targeted by FIA who aren't even trying to hide their intentions. Suddenly they feel a need to change rules that were in place for 10 years and never posed any problems and simply worked as intended.
It's not even a technical change being enforced as it was with party modes ban via TD mid-season back in 2020, or flexy wings clamdowns of the past, this would be a solely sporting attack against one team. Downright corrupt behaviour on behalf of the fia if this goes trough.
This would be akin to allowing 10 instead of 5 engines back in 2014 when everyone apart from mercedes was blowing up constantly.

[organic]

It'd be a shame. Ferrari for instance have spent a great deal of time and rear wing developments improving their DRS and getting it in line with RB in most configurations. Given that they have, it might be difficult for FIA to push this through - RB and Ferrari both could be enough political force to oppose it.

Perhaps they'll find a safety reason to get it introduced

[AR3-GP]

Disabling DRS in qualifying all things being equal I'd say nerfs RB by at least 2 tenths.

This would assume that RB don't change the way they are setting up their car to have a better compromise for these hypothetical new regulations. We could still end up with RB on pole and winning races.

[Juzh]

Disabling DRS in qualifying all things being equal I'd say nerfs RB by at least 2 tenths.

This would assume that RB don't change the way they are setting up their car to have a better compromise for these hypothetical new regulations. We could still end up with RB on pole and winning races.

It stands to reason what RB is running now is what they consider to be the most optimal setup for their car. Adjusting to DRS restriction would be a compromise that when all is said and done is inferior in overall performance.

In any case, I don't believe RB would alter their approach at all. Running higher downforce gives them way too much options in race trim in terms of tyre preservation and also being able to run closer to cars ahead and thus able to overtake more easily. They'd take the hit in qualifying and go on with it, but it would be a hit nonetheless.

[zibby43]

Disabling DRS in qualifying all things being equal I'd say nerfs RB by at least 2 tenths. It's not a problem now with such an advantage in race trim, but they're still being directly targeted by FIA who aren't even trying to hide their intentions. Suddenly they feel a need to change rules that were in place for 10 years and never posed any problems and simply worked as intended.
It's not even a technical change being enforced as it was with party modes ban via TD mid-season back in 2020, or flexy wings clamdowns of the past, this would be a solely sporting attack against one team. Downright corrupt behaviour on behalf of the fia if this goes trough.
This would be akin to allowing 10 instead of 5 engines back in 2014 when everyone apart from mercedes was blowing up constantly.

I don’t see how it’s different than banning FRIC, DAS, engine qualifying modes (those had worked without issue for years), etc. Applies to all teams equally. Does it matter if they instead came out with a targeted directive to neutralize whatever RB has incorporated with their design? The end result is the same.

I’m with Toto. Leave people alone who have done a better job. Sadly, when Merc was being targeted by the rule makers, other teams, and rival fan bases, people were excited to see Merc pegged back if it meant closer racing.

[AR3-GP]

Red Bull was on the grid getting nerfed long before Mercedes was winning anything and it's not even the first time that DRS was nerfed to weaken RB.

[TFSA]

I don’t see how it’s different than banning FRIC, DAS, engine qualifying modes (those had worked without issue for years), etc. Applies to all teams equally. Does it matter if they instead came out with a targeted directive to neutralize whatever RB has incorporated with their design? The end result is the same.

I’m with Toto. Leave people alone who have done a better job. Sadly, when Merc was being targeted by the rule makers, other teams, and rival fan bases, people were excited to see Merc pegged back if it meant closer racing.

I think the logic of banning those examples you mention is to slow the cars down in the corners (for safety reasons) and to keep costs down for teams.

You can argue that DAS and FRIC are expensive to develop and maintain if every team has to do it. Also, FRIC makes cars much quicker in corners, and engine qualifying modes can hurt engines and give a performance advantage that is engine based. FRIC was also eventually deemed a moving aerodynamic device.

DRS doesn't do any of that (beyond being a moveable aerodynamic devuce - but that's also its purpose), and it's there anyway. So the only reason to remove it in qualifying is to slow down teams who have a more effective DRS.

[Juzh]

Disabling DRS in qualifying all things being equal I'd say nerfs RB by at least 2 tenths. It's not a problem now with such an advantage in race trim, but they're still being directly targeted by FIA who aren't even trying to hide their intentions. Suddenly they feel a need to change rules that were in place for 10 years and never posed any problems and simply worked as intended.
It's not even a technical change being enforced as it was with party modes ban via TD mid-season back in 2020, or flexy wings clamdowns of the past, this would be a solely sporting attack against one team. Downright corrupt behaviour on behalf of the fia if this goes trough.
This would be akin to allowing 10 instead of 5 engines back in 2014 when everyone apart from mercedes was blowing up constantly.

I don’t see how it’s different than banning FRIC, DAS, engine qualifying modes (those had worked without issue for years), etc. Applies to all teams equally. Does it matter if they instead came out with a targeted directive to neutralize whatever RB has incorporated with their design? The end result is the same.

I’m with Toto. Leave people alone who have done a better job. Sadly, when Merc was being targeted by the rule makers, other teams, and rival fan bases, people were excited to see Merc pegged back if it meant closer racing.

Not me, and If those changes are to be made they should always be made for the following season and never during a season - example DAS.

Siding with team principals in such matters basically guarantees you becoming a hypocrite at some stage. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if toto is behind this DRS push. And certainly mercedes was behind the push for TD39 and the flexi wing saga of 2021, all during season.

And yes, DRS restriction is different compared to all examples mentioned so far, because it's a sporting change, not a technical one, and is purely and exclusively targeted at single team. As said, if they "have" to do it, they should do it in the off season.