2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[Stu]

(Belgium is a weird one to use anyway - Rus/Ham had different rear wing set-ups, McLaren were an outlier wrt every other team).

AMuS reporting that F1 is investigating removing DRS usage in qualifying. Maybe first signs of a RB nerf for next season



https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... s-mclaren/

What you're saying is that every car on the grid has exactly the same DRS effectiveness, seriously ? Why is belgium not a good example? So what if teams had different setups, what we saw is same old story, RB gains the most with DRS open.

Ver vs Ham - low DF wing still not enough to overhaul RB's DRS
https://i.imgur.com/7yc6F1v.png

Ver vs Rus - It looks like Rus ran very similar drag levels as Verstappen, except of course when DRS is activated
https://i.imgur.com/OFjYCw2.png

In Silverstone RB was consistently not very fast in S1 and S3 during Q1 and Q2, then was immediately on the pace in Q3 with drs open.

There are two lines in the max speed comparison that are truly noteworthy and those are the comparison of Ham & Rus (same car, same PU, same everything except aero package). The difference in numbers (and the increase in terminal velocity) between those two set-ups says a great deal. Look at the differences in percentage terms and lap-times and there are indicators of all-round performance differentiators.

[ringo]

Interesting how mercedes is blamed for protesting and lobbying for technicl directives etc against redbull where there is zero facts that it was the case.
Anyhow I think there will not be much gained if DRS is banned in qualifying.
The RB19 is simply a more efficient chassis than all others. Without DRS the setup will simply be optimized for that arrangement.
The team can run thei simulations to see which downforce level gives the best lap time as it has been done for years. That chasis will always be better than the other teams'.

I do not think anything can be done regulation wise to slow down redbull. Only spec parts for all will tighten the competition as the team will not unlearn what they know.

The beauty about the RB19 is that every part, aero and mechanical, is working in harmony. The mild tyre wear and how fast the car can go with it is testament to the harmony. I do not think there is a silver bullet where a refulation change can spoil the redbull party.

[zibby43]

Disabling DRS in qualifying all things being equal I'd say nerfs RB by at least 2 tenths. It's not a problem now with such an advantage in race trim, but they're still being directly targeted by FIA who aren't even trying to hide their intentions. Suddenly they feel a need to change rules that were in place for 10 years and never posed any problems and simply worked as intended.
It's not even a technical change being enforced as it was with party modes ban via TD mid-season back in 2020, or flexy wings clamdowns of the past, this would be a solely sporting attack against one team. Downright corrupt behaviour on behalf of the fia if this goes trough.
This would be akin to allowing 10 instead of 5 engines back in 2014 when everyone apart from mercedes was blowing up constantly.

I don’t see how it’s different than banning FRIC, DAS, engine qualifying modes (those had worked without issue for years), etc. Applies to all teams equally. Does it matter if they instead came out with a targeted directive to neutralize whatever RB has incorporated with their design? The end result is the same.

I’m with Toto. Leave people alone who have done a better job. Sadly, when Merc was being targeted by the rule makers, other teams, and rival fan bases, people were excited to see Merc pegged back if it meant closer racing.

Not me, and If those changes are to be made they should always be made for the following season and never during a season - example DAS.

Siding with team principals in such matters basically guarantees you becoming a hypocrite at some stage. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if toto is behind this DRS push. And certainly mercedes was behind the push for TD39 and the flexi wing saga of 2021, all during season.

And yes, DRS restriction is different compared to all examples mentioned so far, because it's a sporting change, not a technical one, and is purely and exclusively targeted at single team. As said, if they "have" to do it, they should do it in the off season.

I guess I don't understand how prohibiting qualifying engine modes in-season does not constitute both a sporting change, and a technical one. There's overlap there, in my opinion. As Just_a_fan pointed out, that was also targeted toward Mercedes.

I would be shocked if Toto wasted any political capital on saying anything about DRS this year when they are very clearly not even remotely close to competing for either of the championships. I have also seen nothing reported that any team personnel in the paddock were asked for the change.

[Bill]

it will be a good idea to bring back fric and more innovative suspension for those struggling with bouncing so long as team stay within budget.

[djos]

it will be a good idea to bring back fric and more innovative suspension for those struggling with bouncing so long as team stay within budget.

No it would not. FRIC was an expensive and complex solution to replicating some of the benefits of active suspension.

A far better and cheaper solution would be to allow a Williams FW14 style system managed by a control ECU.

[Farnborough]

it will be a good idea to bring back fric and more innovative suspension for those struggling with bouncing so long as team stay within budget.

How would that help anyone ? unless the proposed implementation is for some of the teams, and not others. Which is not tenable.

The same technology for all hasn't historically shown that it brings back markers into play, more that those understanding it will reap even more advantage.

I'd respectfully offer Williams FW14B as evidence sir

The advantage here is good theory well executed, some of the design approaches are clearly naive in their first iteration 2022 guise, but mostly they seem to have grasped the task facing thrn in opposition to this RB team. Whether these rules will last long enough to give them time in catching up we'll have to see.

My biggest reservation is the continuous rolling over and remaking of the F1 rule set, that's always going to give dispersion initially, when spectators would like to see genuine racing.

[basti313]

it will be a good idea to bring back fric and more innovative suspension for those struggling with bouncing so long as team stay within budget.

How would that help anyone ? unless the proposed implementation is for some of the teams, and not others. Which is not tenable.

The same technology for all hasn't historically shown that it brings back markers into play, more that those understanding it will reap even more advantage.

I'd respectfully offer Williams FW14B as evidence sir

The advantage here is good theory well executed, some of the design approaches are clearly naive in their first iteration 2022 guise, but mostly they seem to have grasped the task facing thrn in opposition to this RB team. Whether these rules will last long enough to give them time in catching up we'll have to see.

My biggest reservation is the continuous rolling over and remaking of the F1 rule set, that's always going to give dispersion initially, when spectators would like to see genuine racing.

I think you make a good point here.
A rule change is not helping to bring the field together or to mix it as the RB is too strong in every aero and chassis aspect and the big rule change for 26 is not far away. In engine terms they want to bring the Renault up to performance, not work on the small differences between the others (still this bears some danger).
I think it will simply be like towards 2021: RB has to keep up the development and not do crazy things to not have a Merc 21/22 issue where they on one side get jumped by another team and in return screw up the rule change.
On the other side there will be teams that will purely work on the rule change and others working on a good 25 car...maybe with some silver bullet on the engine when the FIA starts playing.

So even if we think or expect RB to win everything till the end of 25...it is not as easy as it seems.

[Wouter]

Where will the event be held?

Red Bull Showrun will happen in front of the United Center. Madison Street and the surrounding parking lots will be transformed into a closed circuit spanning over 2,000 ft. Reference the map for more details.

Red Bull Showrun is a showcase in which Oracle Red Bull Racing demonstrates the power of the RB7 across the U.S. and the world.

Who will be driving the RB7?

Patrick Friesacher, longest-serving Red Bull driver who also drove for the Minardi Formula One team during the first half of the 2005 season.

Do I need to purchase tickets [for free]?

You must RSVP and present your ticket at the gate to attend. Those without a RSVP ticket will be denied entry into the event.

https://www.redbull.com/us-en/events/re ... n-chicago/
https://www.redbull.com/us-en/events/re ... un-chicago

[ValeVida46]

How would that help anyone ? unless the proposed implementation is for some of the teams, and not others. Which is not tenable.

The same technology for all hasn't historically shown that it brings back markers into play, more that those understanding it will reap even more advantage.

I'd respectfully offer Williams FW14B as evidence sir

The advantage here is good theory well executed, some of the design approaches are clearly naive in their first iteration 2022 guise, but mostly they seem to have grasped the task facing thrn in opposition to this RB team. Whether these rules will last long enough to give them time in catching up we'll have to see.

My biggest reservation is the continuous rolling over and remaking of the F1 rule set, that's always going to give dispersion initially, when spectators would like to see genuine racing.

How would it help? It resolves the ride issue all teams experience. The only difference is the variation of it.
Cost issues are mitigated by no longer needing to spend resources and cash on finding a compromised suspension solution for the season. Because that's essentially what everyone is doing.

And if you're offering the FW14B as evidence, it had first mover advantage over the entire field and was running the system as early as 1988 on the FW12. FRICS could easily be made spec and to cost by any team too.

F1 has always been an evolutionary sport. No different today, and far more has been done in far less domineering seasons previously. After all, it's racing the spectators want to see right?

[Farnborough]

How would that help anyone ? unless the proposed implementation is for some of the teams, and not others. Which is not tenable.

The same technology for all hasn't historically shown that it brings back markers into play, more that those understanding it will reap even more advantage.

I'd respectfully offer Williams FW14B as evidence sir

The advantage here is good theory well executed, some of the design approaches are clearly naive in their first iteration 2022 guise, but mostly they seem to have grasped the task facing thrn in opposition to this RB team. Whether these rules will last long enough to give them time in catching up we'll have to see.

My biggest reservation is the continuous rolling over and remaking of the F1 rule set, that's always going to give dispersion initially, when spectators would like to see genuine racing.

How would it help? It resolves the ride issue all teams experience. The only difference is the variation of it.
Cost issues are mitigated by no longer needing to spend resources and cash on finding a compromised suspension solution for the season. Because that's essentially what everyone is doing.

And if you're offering the FW14B as evidence, it had first mover advantage over the entire field and was running the system as early as 1988 on the FW12. FRICS could easily be made spec and to cost by any team too.

F1 has always been an evolutionary sport. No different today, and far more has been done in far less domineering seasons previously. After all, it's racing the spectators want to see right?

I see that as your Mercedes centric view, they being the most affected and still stating they don't know what's the cause, even now I'm pretty sure this contribution (nakedly about MB failure in reality) is not welcome here by many in the RB thread. Someone other than I can be the judge of that, I'll not add anything else to that particular discussion here.

On topic of progression, it's been clearly demonstrated that both AM & McL have taken in the significant aspect of this rules set, both with a very substantial move toward competing with this RB platform with the cars they've put forward this year. Showing clear and definite grasp of the task in hand, albeit both with a little searching of which way they are pointing as we go through from season start.

I do feel next year is going to bring closer pace (it's still a very compressed , for pace, field anyway) of the teams able to think comprehensively about just how much focus is needed in concept to start with.

This RB19 conceptually, its application to solving the problems given and the whole team in operating it I see a a high water mark overall in F1.

It really does give the others something to aim at, and all the more satisfaction if they can outperform what is patently coming into view as a masterpiece

[Cs98]

Disabling DRS in qualifying all things being equal I'd say nerfs RB by at least 2 tenths.

This would assume that RB don't change the way they are setting up their car to have a better compromise for these hypothetical new regulations. We could still end up with RB on pole and winning races.

It stands to reason what RB is running now is what they consider to be the most optimal setup for their car. Adjusting to DRS restriction would be a compromise that when all is said and done is inferior in overall performance.

In any case, I don't believe RB would alter their approach at all. Running higher downforce gives them way too much options in race trim in terms of tyre preservation and also being able to run closer to cars ahead and thus able to overtake more easily. They'd take the hit in qualifying and go on with it, but it would be a hit nonetheless.

Their wings are designed for the current DRS situation. If DRS is banned in quali the "optimal wing" would change and be skewed more towards DRS closed top speed. So RB would probably re-design their wings slightly to accomodate that and retain their efficiency advantage. Something more in line with what Merc has now, wings that are clearly optimised for DRS closed.

[ValeVida46]

I see that as your Mercedes centric view, they being the most affected and still stating they don't know what's the cause, even now I'm pretty sure this contribution (nakedly about MB failure in reality) is not welcome here by many in the RB thread. Someone other than I can be the judge of that, I'll not add anything else to that particular discussion here.

On topic of progression, it's been clearly demonstrated that both AM & McL have taken in the significant aspect of this rules set, both with a very substantial move toward competing with this RB platform with the cars they've put forward this year. Showing clear and definite grasp of the task in hand, albeit both with a little searching of which way they are pointing as we go through from season start.

I do feel next year is going to bring closer pace (it's still a very compressed , for pace, field anyway) of the teams able to think comprehensively about just how much focus is needed in concept to start with.

This RB19 conceptually, its application to solving the problems given and the whole team in operating it I see a a high water mark overall in F1.

It really does give the others something to aim at, and all the more satisfaction if they can outperform what is patently coming into view as a masterpiece

That would be your bias then unfortunately as nowhere have I mentioned Mercedes, or intimated anything as much, would be good for discussion if people aren't subjected to "x-centric" prefaces. My post was regarding the sport remaining status quo in the face of what might be the most dominant season in F1 history.
I quoted you and cited your points after all? Specifically, Williams having a huge active suspension advantage which would not be a comparative equal to the evidence you cited. If you still feel that way, it's all good.

Additionally, neither examples you mentioned(AMR/McL) can get anywhere close to racing for a win. And the application of water mark levels to the RB19 is no different to any other dominating car. It's intrinsic to domination that the watermark would be high.
The only difference is the FIA are presently not as reactive as they were in previous instances of dominance.

I have zero qualms with giving Red Bull credit and Kudos for their domination. I just find the view that it should be left "as is" to be unprecedented in F1 history.

[organic]

The sliding scale of development time is unprecedented in F1 history as well. Isn't that the device that F1 has built into the regs so that they don't have to meddle? Previous dominant cars/teams didn't have that to contend with

[Just_a_fan]

This would assume that RB don't change the way they are setting up their car to have a better compromise for these hypothetical new regulations. We could still end up with RB on pole and winning races.

It stands to reason what RB is running now is what they consider to be the most optimal setup for their car. Adjusting to DRS restriction would be a compromise that when all is said and done is inferior in overall performance.

In any case, I don't believe RB would alter their approach at all. Running higher downforce gives them way too much options in race trim in terms of tyre preservation and also being able to run closer to cars ahead and thus able to overtake more easily. They'd take the hit in qualifying and go on with it, but it would be a hit nonetheless.

Their wings are designed for the current DRS situation. If DRS is banned in quali the "optimal wing" would change and be skewed more towards DRS closed top speed. So RB would probably re-design their wings slightly to accomodate that and retain their efficiency advantage. Something more in line with what Merc has now, wings that are clearly optimised for DRS closed.

I think that depends on how close the competition is in qualifying. If they can get through with the current design then keeping it is beneficial - big DRS speed gains are still helpful in the race, especially if you've been undercut and have to overtake to regain places.

[Bill]

ferrari and merc has only next year to sort themselves out or they will be forced to focus on 2026 and watch Max become a five time world champion.fia can help by opening up suspension to 2021 spec.the cars are very stiff and that pose a problem in terms of poiposing for the 2 teams