2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[Big Tea]

https://www-motorsport--magazin-com.tra ... r_hl=en-US
So marko still wants a hierarchy code word for number 1 driver status.. but would give norris a seat but not Lewis if they kick out perez... newey always wanted Lewis to drive his cars in 2011 they talked at his house... a max + Lewis in tge same team would be boz office

We know they've tried to sign Norris multiple times in the past few years, so it's not a surprise that Marko is into the idea. I've got no clue who they'll end up with or what sort of driver they even want at this point. Do they see their advantage over the field continuing? In which case a driver like a Perez/Ricciardo will work for WCC. They have a lot of options given that almost any driver would be up for the drive

With hindsight, the only way we would ever have had Max-Hamilton driver combo is if Max had joined Merc's driver academy prior to accepting Marko's Toro Rosso seat. Imagine those two duking it out in the W11, lapping the field. Box office indeed

Norris should have taken the seat or was he scared of max ?

It's not Max that would be making the calls, its the team, and the team want Max to win as he is the best 'box office'.

Fighting someone, Max in particular, in equal equipment on level terms would be hard but having no call over what the team decides is a bit of a bummer.

TBH, I do not see Lando besting Max competing on a level field, but when the preferred result is probably decided before the first race, it would crush anyone.

[Juzh]

but when the preferred result is probably decided before the first race, it would crush anyone.

Silly assumptions all around. As it was decided in 2014 with Vettel-Ric and then later with Max-Ric, right?

If norris comes in and schools max then team dynamic will turn to whoever performs best, exactly as it did in the past. Obviously norris knows max is next level and would rather spend a decade in midfield, sometimes borderline backmaker mclaren rather than go head to head with him.

laughable

[Big Tea]

but when the preferred result is probably decided before the first race, it would crush anyone.

Silly assumptions all around. As it was decided in 2014 with Vettel-Ric and then later with Max-Ric, right?

If norris comes in and schools max then team dynamic will turn to whoever performs best, exactly as it did in the past. Obviously norris knows max is next level and would rather spend a decade in midfield, sometimes borderline backmaker mclaren rather than go head to head with him.

laughable

You think Lando would be allowed to? I do not think he could, but I am quite sure he would not be allowed to unless they were sure they would have more value out of Lando being top dog, which would not be the first year and by the second or third year the 'pecking order' would be set and Max would always have the call over Lando because it worked last time.

The team are entitled to make what ever priority decisions the want, its why they are there, but I really do not see it as a good place for Lando as long as Max is still there and unchallenged by another team and all points are needed.

[Sieper]

Agree with Stu all this hypothetical talk, to ‘prove’ the point is getting rather silly.

Lando would not be allowed to compete if he were a redbull driver. While Ricci was with Vettel and Max was with Ricci.

So the reality shows the point not to be valid, but the hypothetical situation is somehow prove.

RBR is a racing team that never used orders at least not with Max, that others need to move over or are not allowed to battle. They won’t look for a bitter intra teambattle and that is fully understandable.

[dans79]

RBR is a racing team that never used orders at least not with Max, that others need to move over or are not allowed to battle. They won’t look for a bitter intra teambattle and that is fully understandable.

silverstone 2010, they took the new front wing of Webbers car and gave it to seb, because seb damaged his.
and coming into the weekend they were very close on points vettel had 115, while Webber had 103.

and last year max got preferential treatment.
https://www.racefans.net/2022/09/01/ver ... ew-events/

While Max Verstappen continues to use the team’s current floor design, Red Bull reverted to an older specification floor on Perez’s car.
“We just have different floors for now,” said Perez, who confirmed the decision to compare the two designs was prompted by the team. “It’s going to be, we’re going to have this floor for the next few events, and we will try to get a better read.”

The floor on Perez’s car has a cut in the section in front of the rear wheels. The design hasn’t been seen since the British Grand Prix in July.

https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/perez ... /10365385/

Perez revealed at Zandvoort last weekend that he would be sticking with the floor for a few more races, even though it appears not to be the optimum version and he has been battling to get on terms with his teammate for a little bit.

Red Bull team boss Christian Horner has revealed that the floor decision has been forced on financial grounds, with the squad most likely unwilling to build another old-spec floor at this stage of the season amid the restrictions of the cost cap.

[AR3-GP]

RBR is a racing team that never used orders at least not with Max, that others need to move over or are not allowed to battle. They won’t look for a bitter intra teambattle and that is fully understandable.

silverstone 2010, they took the new front wing of Webbers car and gave it to seb, because seb damaged his.
and coming into the weekend they were very close on points vettel had 115, while Webber had 103.

and last year max got preferential treatment.
https://www.racefans.net/2022/09/01/ver ... ew-events/

While Max Verstappen continues to use the team’s current floor design, Red Bull reverted to an older specification floor on Perez’s car.
“We just have different floors for now,” said Perez, who confirmed the decision to compare the two designs was prompted by the team. “It’s going to be, we’re going to have this floor for the next few events, and we will try to get a better read.”

The floor on Perez’s car has a cut in the section in front of the rear wheels. The design hasn’t been seen since the British Grand Prix in July.

https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/perez ... /10365385/

Perez revealed at Zandvoort last weekend that he would be sticking with the floor for a few more races, even though it appears not to be the optimum version and he has been battling to get on terms with his teammate for a little bit.

Red Bull team boss Christian Horner has revealed that the floor decision has been forced on financial grounds, with the squad most likely unwilling to build another old-spec floor at this stage of the season amid the restrictions of the cost cap.

1) Webber didn't like the wing. He just didn't want Seb to have it because what's good for Seb is bad for Webber.
2) Max got the "old floor".
3) Perez crashed and damaged his car in Monaco, Austria, Canada, that year. Max never crashed once. Perez faced the financial consequences of his actions. There simply wasn't enough spares to sustain his driving. When RB go over the cap, people whine. When RB try to stay under it, again whining.

Perez once again this year crashed in Australia, Monaco, and Hungary, in addition to damage sustained racing a car he shouldn't have been in Spa. RB is not a perpetual parts machine for him. If there's no money, he's getting the 2nd hand parts.

[organic]

I think the whole cut in the floor thing was as follows: for Silverstone RB experimented with a cut rear floor as other teams, which was used by both drivers. At Hungary, max received the entirely new floor spec which caused a good step in performance and this new floor spec didn't have the floor cutout designed in. So while it looked like Max had reverted to the pre-silverstone even older spec floor than Perez, he'd actually received the new spec floor a couple of races early

In 2021 and 2022 Max received upgrades earlier than Perez. Usually a race weekend earlier especially in '21 when this was always the case. I think this is the biggest thing that changed for 2023 relative to earlier - Perez wanted to be treated more equally in terms of upgrades. This year every upgrade has come on both cars simultaneously

Personally I think if anyone came to RB and outperformed Max then it's not like they would work to undermine them. Any driver of the calibre capable to cause max issues would contractually be demanding by default to be receiving equal treatment similar to Perez in 2023 ie upgrades at the same time, allowed to race on track. There's no precedent to suggest they wouldn't allow this, but there is precedent to suggest that they would (ricciardo - vettel).

[ringo]

So as not to send the thread into conspiracy, I will focus on the team's data and dynamic with the driver as the most difficult challenge.
Even if Norris came to redbull and had more raw speed than Max, he simply would be behind in say the first 6 or even 10 races. Max like Vettel has a symbiotic relationship with the car and engineers. They know what works for setup after racing multiple times on the same circuits. They know about the tyre behavior, they know the strategies for certain circumstances and they know how to build up systematically over the weekend to get the best out of the car. Therefore Norris would be #2 as it would be impossible to come into a new team and be the fastest off the bat, if its the same regulation and the other driver has the team built around him. He simply would be behind for the first swr of races and the team would throw it's weight behind the known quantity which is Max.
But in year 2, Norris would have better footing and knowledge about the team. I think it's a good move to consider.

[Wouter]

Why Red Bull thinks its dominant RB19 F1 car is just "average good"

As Red Bull's technical director Pierre Wache tells Autosport: "It is average good for everything, which is creating a good car.

"It's not very good in one aspect. Why we think it is good because we are quicker than others, but fundamentally I would say
we didn't do a fantastic job. We did a good job.

"I was more surprised by others, who didn't do as good a job I would say. That is why our expectations were different
from the beginning of the year.

"I don't want to be modest or whatever, but when you see some teams are able in three races to gain one second per lap,
it means if you put the stuff together, it will be decent. It doesn't require two years of development."

The whole interview with Pierre Waché.

[organic]

RB personnel must be spending summer break with the journos this year

Fun fact of the day: Verstappen has never lost a place on a safety car restart since joining RB 8 years ago

[PlatinumZealot]

Okay now that was a humble brag! Thebmost dominant car in history and he thinks it was a good job not a fantastic one.

[Just_a_fan]

Why Red Bull thinks its dominant RB19 F1 car is just "average good"

As Red Bull's technical director Pierre Wache tells Autosport: "It is average good for everything, which is creating a good car.

"It's not very good in one aspect. Why we think it is good because we are quicker than others, but fundamentally I would say
we didn't do a fantastic job. We did a good job.

"I was more surprised by others, who didn't do as good a job I would say. That is why our expectations were different
from the beginning of the year.

"I don't want to be modest or whatever, but when you see some teams are able in three races to gain one second per lap,
it means if you put the stuff together, it will be decent. It doesn't require two years of development."

The whole interview with Pierre Waché.

That's akin to Toto's old "we're the underdog" claims back when Merc were the team to beat. No one believed him then and I'd be amazed if anyone believes Wache now.

[organic]

Why Red Bull thinks its dominant RB19 F1 car is just "average good"

As Red Bull's technical director Pierre Wache tells Autosport: "It is average good for everything, which is creating a good car.

"It's not very good in one aspect. Why we think it is good because we are quicker than others, but fundamentally I would say
we didn't do a fantastic job. We did a good job.

"I was more surprised by others, who didn't do as good a job I would say. That is why our expectations were different
from the beginning of the year.

"I don't want to be modest or whatever, but when you see some teams are able in three races to gain one second per lap,
it means if you put the stuff together, it will be decent. It doesn't require two years of development."

The whole interview with Pierre Waché.

That's akin to Toto's old "we're the underdog" claims back when Merc were the team to beat. No one believed him then and I'd be amazed if anyone believes Wache now.

Is it not true though? Ferrari and Mercedes failed to make the expected step forward between 2022 and 2023.

All of the midfield, RB stepped forward the expected amount - about a second per lap and Williams/AMR stepped forward slightly more.

So the net result was RB clear of everyone else and then Ferrari/AMR/Merc quite close to the midfield

I think on race pace relative to early 2022 you have Merc/Ferrari gaining half a second? Ferrari got slower than the F1-75 at australia for instance. Whilst other teams gained at least a second per lap..

Ferrari and Merc themselves are saying they didn't get things right which also supports what waché says - Merc with their ride height not being aggressive enough and limited by commitment to the wrong concept. Whilst Ferrari performance was not up to scratch due to a peaky floor design that didn't work as expected on track.

[AR3-GP]

Why Red Bull thinks its dominant RB19 F1 car is just "average good"

As Red Bull's technical director Pierre Wache tells Autosport: "It is average good for everything, which is creating a good car.

"It's not very good in one aspect. Why we think it is good because we are quicker than others, but fundamentally I would say
we didn't do a fantastic job. We did a good job.

"I was more surprised by others, who didn't do as good a job I would say. That is why our expectations were different
from the beginning of the year.

"I don't want to be modest or whatever, but when you see some teams are able in three races to gain one second per lap,
it means if you put the stuff together, it will be decent. It doesn't require two years of development."

The whole interview with Pierre Waché.

That's akin to Toto's old "we're the underdog" claims back when Merc were the team to beat. No one believed him then and I'd be amazed if anyone believes Wache now.

It really has nothing to do with it does it....

[DDopey]

In 2021 and 2022 Max received upgrades earlier than Perez. Usually a race weekend earlier especially in '21 when this was always the case. I think this is the biggest thing that changed for 2023 relative to earlier - Perez wanted to be treated more equally in terms of upgrades. This year every upgrade has come on both cars simultaneously

With Mercedes they call this a disadvantage for the driver who gets the upgrades, what was it called when Lewis got the the upgrades first; 'Experimenting'.