2023 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 01 - 03

[Juzh]

Make 5s a 10s or even 15s penalty and soon drivers will change their minds. Russell simply admitting he conciously rather took the 5s instead of letting ocon go tells us everything.

[chrisc90]

Make 5s a 10s or even 15s penalty and soon drivers will change their minds. Russell simply admitting he conciously rather took the 5s instead of letting ocon go tells us everything.

Agreed.

I also wonder if having an additional penalty (the lasting advantage) should be given IF the driver who overtook off track and failed to give the position back.

It shouldn’t really be a one or the other scenario. Russell overtook off track, failed to give the position back AND gained a lasting advantage. That should be worthy of two penalties in my opinion.

[dialtone]

So squeezing a skilful/lucky driver on to the grass is OK. But squeezing someone on to the grass who is unable to control their car for whatever reason is grounds for hanging from the nearest tree. OK, at least we know the ground rules going forward.

If you break the rules and cause a crash you get punished, that's what happens. And sure, you can place faith in the other driver to get out of the way of your mistake. But that's a risk the rule-breaker is taking, if something does go wrong you will have to take responsibility because it was you who broke the rules, not the the other guy. It's really not that difficult.

And enough with the lynching rhetoric. It's not befitting the topic of a 5 second penalty, nor this forum at all really.

Of course, this approach basically reverts to the idea that the outcome should be punished and not the action. Which is a strange approach in most walks of life.

I don't find it strange at all in other walks of life. You crash into another car under the influence and the person in the other car passes away. You think you are getting off with more or less time served than if they are unharmed? You run a red light and cause a crash, more or less punishment than if the crash was avoided? The outcome of illegal activity is a consideration when determining what is appropriate punishment.

There were people calling for quite draconian penalties - drive-throughs, 10s stop-and-go, etc. They are pretty much a lynching in motorsport terms.

Yes, serious offences do carry further punishment, but you still get a punishment for "victimless crimes" such as speeding. Drive at 60mph on an empty 40mph road and you get punished. No one is hurt but the rule has been broken. But at Monza we see people causing others to go on to the grass and it's considered ok so long as they don't crash - "no harm, no foul", a so-called "victimless crime". But that's not how rules should be implemented. You break the rule, you get a penalty. The outcome should be irrelevant to the question "was the rule broken?"

Why are you so upset? People get pushed off track all the time to avoid being passed or to pass.

Verstappen v Leclerc in Austria ‘21
Perez v Leclerc in Silverstone ‘22
Verstappen v Hamilton in Brazil ‘21
Verstappen v Hamilton in AD ‘21
Many times between Rosberg and Hamilton
Gasly did it to Ocon in Australia and Sainz got punished (lmao)
Happens regularly in t1 in Baku

Off the top of my head without any real research, but now when Leclerc does it he should be penalized instantly even without a collision?

[basti313]

Anyone else think that the penalty/ rule that George?? got for overtaking another car off track was a bit lenient? Or whether it should be better addressed in future?

Well...the ridiculous point is that George knew exactly what he was doing. Smart...well executed.

I think F1 is completely on the wrong path with the penalties. They introduces the 5sec and 10sec penalty not to reduce penalties, but to judge minor infringements with accordingly small penalties.
But today they hand out 5sec or 10sec penalties even if you send your opponent into a wall...

I am surprised that we did not really discuss this before, but now when "only" someone goes straight in a corner.

[dans79]

Off the top of my head without any real research, but now when Leclerc does it he should be penalized instantly even without a collision?

If you violate the rules you should be penalized. F1 penalties shouldn't be outcome based, or driver based, or track dependent.

It shouldn't matter if contact or a dnf occurred or not. it shouldn't matter if the driver is 1st or last in the championship. It shouldn't matter if it's the teams or drivers home race.

The issue is the FIA is a completely pathetic organization now, they care more about keeping fans happy and the money flowing, than they do about enforcing the rules, and they are getting worse every year!

[Sofa King]

Does it seem like tire deg is very low this year? All of the top ten drivers this race did a one stopper. To create more strategic opportunities and excitement in the race, hopefully next year’s compounds/tires are developed and selected to make a one stopper more the exception and only viable when starting on the hardest compound in a dry race. That should create a more stark tradeoff between hanging long for a safety car/one stopper and a two stopper with softer tires to get a better start off the line

[AR3-GP]

Does it seem like tire deg is very low this year? All of the top ten drivers this race did a one stopper. To create more strategic opportunities and excitement in the race, hopefully next year’s compounds/tires are developed and selected to make a one stopper more the exception and only viable when starting on the hardest compound in a dry race. That should create a more stark tradeoff between hanging long for a safety car/one stopper and a two stopper with softer tires to get a better start off the line

Is tire deg low? Teams deliberately ran the M-H tires even though the soft was available. So it might not be a case of tire deg being low, but teams simply using the harder compounds to avoid tire deg.

[Stu]

With reference to the many posts regarding penalties, lynching (really!!?), hypothetical driver A/driver B scenarios (cherry-picked…); give it a rest! It is becoming little more than trolling and spam. If you really want the thread to be locked for a clean-up carry on, if not, please play nicely together.

[AR3-GP]

Gasly did it to Ocon in Australia and Sainz got punished (lmao)

How could I possibly let this slip past. Sainz ran into Alonso and it had nothing to do with Gasly or Ocon. We have discussed this at length. I don't plan to concede.

For all of the Gasly-Ocon shenanigans in Australia, Sainz did a number on Leclerc in Monza and got away with it, so we're even, no? Teammate debauchery doesn't get penalized because it hurts the team more than the drivers. We've seen Russell and Hamilton getting handsy in Spa and Spain qualy, and the same outcome, no penalties.

[Astro85]

Make 5s a 10s or even 15s penalty and soon drivers will change their minds. Russell simply admitting he conciously rather took the 5s instead of letting ocon go tells us everything.

Agreed.

I also wonder if having an additional penalty (the lasting advantage) should be given IF the driver who overtook off track and failed to give the position back.

It shouldn’t really be a one or the other scenario. Russell overtook off track, failed to give the position back AND gained a lasting advantage. That should be worthy of two penalties in my opinion.

Which could have been solved simply and immediately by the FIA ordering Russell to give the position back, of course common sense is not one of their strong points.

[chrisc90]

Make 5s a 10s or even 15s penalty and soon drivers will change their minds. Russell simply admitting he conciously rather took the 5s instead of letting ocon go tells us everything.

Agreed.

I also wonder if having an additional penalty (the lasting advantage) should be given IF the driver who overtook off track and failed to give the position back.

It shouldn’t really be a one or the other scenario. Russell overtook off track, failed to give the position back AND gained a lasting advantage. That should be worthy of two penalties in my opinion.

Which could have been solved simply and immediately by the FIA ordering Russell to give the position back, of course common sense is not one of their strong points.

Yep, the rule should be that the position needs to be given back within 3 corners - which is more that sufficient or you get a nice hefty penalty thrown at you. (Or +5 seconds if the car behind takes a pitstop and unable to give the position back within the time frame)

Probably worthy of another topic, but in todays races is 5seconds ever really a ‘penalty’? When there’s gaps of 10+ seconds between some drivers, it’s no longer a penalty so to speak given the gaps in front and behind can differ quite a bit. If penalties were 10-15seconds minimum - people would definitely think twice - given it’s bound to have a negative effect on your race

[Astro85]

Agreed.

I also wonder if having an additional penalty (the lasting advantage) should be given IF the driver who overtook off track and failed to give the position back.

It shouldn’t really be a one or the other scenario. Russell overtook off track, failed to give the position back AND gained a lasting advantage. That should be worthy of two penalties in my opinion.

Which could have been solved simply and immediately by the FIA ordering Russell to give the position back, of course common sense is not one of their strong points.

Yep, the rule should be that the position needs to be given back within 3 corners - which is more that sufficient or you get a nice hefty penalty thrown at you. (Or +5 seconds if the car behind takes a pitstop and unable to give the position back within the time frame)

Probably worthy of another topic, but in todays races is 5seconds ever really a ‘penalty’? When there’s gaps of 10+ seconds between some drivers, it’s no longer a penalty so to speak given the gaps in front and behind can differ quite a bit. If penalties were 10-15seconds minimum - people would definitely think twice - given it’s bound to have a negative effect on your race

Right, but if the FIA informs the driver over the radio then it saves all confusion as to whether they believe the place should be handed back and certain situations, and, if, like you say they don't hand the place back then go ahead and penalize them, no driver would ever ignore the order.

[AR3-GP]

Make 5s a 10s or even 15s penalty and soon drivers will change their minds. Russell simply admitting he conciously rather took the 5s instead of letting ocon go tells us everything.

Agreed.

I also wonder if having an additional penalty (the lasting advantage) should be given IF the driver who overtook off track and failed to give the position back.

It shouldn’t really be a one or the other scenario. Russell overtook off track, failed to give the position back AND gained a lasting advantage. That should be worthy of two penalties in my opinion.

How about teams consciously breaking cost cap rules?
Russel could have only been punished to the letter of the rule and no more. Going beyond that gets into complications.
Suprised these minor aspects of the race are still being debated. Move on folks!

The discussion isn't about the past. We cannot change and retroactively fit punishments to past transgressions. All we can do now is focus on the future. What shall we do to prevent drivers from getting too clever.

As for whether events can be moved on or not? It's the Monza race thread. Better here than elsewhere no?

[PlatinumZealot]

Does it seem like tire deg is very low this year? All of the top ten drivers this race did a one stopper. To create more strategic opportunities and excitement in the race, hopefully next year’s compounds/tires are developed and selected to make a one stopper more the exception and only viable when starting on the hardest compound in a dry race. That should create a more stark tradeoff between hanging long for a safety car/one stopper and a two stopper with softer tires to get a better start off the line

The teams have a way of racing to the life of the tyre. They will always do this unless the degradation or cliff costs more than a pitstop. (24 seconds). And Pirelli cannot go too soft for safety reasons and worse they cannot increase pressures too high because the drivers don't like the feel of it.

I proposed a solution to this problem... To make pitstops attractive by giving opportunities thru refuelling.

[AR3-GP]

I also think refueling would mix up the races more. Many detest the thought however...