TD018 2023 - clampdown on flexible wings

[Cs98]

Merc qualified 5th and 6th that year.

Not to mention the field spread was also significantly larger. 2.528 seconds covered the top 10 vs 1.284 seconds this year.

Edit: The tire rules also played a part, because teams could pick how many of each tire they wanted.

Their position on the grid and the massive field spread is just a reflection of how few competitive teams we had then. The fact is that the clear fastest car on the grid was all of a sudden 1,5 seconds off the pace.

[PlatinumZealot]

Singapore will have been one of Mclarens worst circuits though. They aren’t as strong as Ferrari in traction and braking. Well documented.

Suzuka will really be home for their car because of the high speed corners which their car excels at.

And likewise, Ferrari’s new floor doesn’t have to fix “all” of their problems. A 1 tenth upgrade adds up to a few seconds of race time improvement.

30 seconds is a pulled out of the arse number anyway. If Rb are still winning by that margin with their penalty and lack of upgrades, the others need to sell their teams.

Maybe but in recent GPs, RB won by 34 seconds in Hungary and 32 seconds at Spa, and would have won by close to 30 seconds in Austria if Max hadn't pitted to secure FL.

and they only won by 11 seconds in Monza. We are fortunate to have had Monza before the TD where they already didn't take pole because otherwise people would use Monza as evidence that they are no longer winning by 30 seconds after the TD.

The truth is disappointing. When Mercedes was 1.5 seconds off pole in 2015 without any regulations changes, no one bats and eye.

Monza cannot be used for the comparison as cars tend to run close there for the entire race.

[AR3-GP]

Maybe but in recent GPs, RB won by 34 seconds in Hungary and 32 seconds at Spa, and would have won by close to 30 seconds in Austria if Max hadn't pitted to secure FL.

and they only won by 11 seconds in Monza. We are fortunate to have had Monza before the TD where they already didn't take pole because otherwise people would use Monza as evidence that they are no longer winning by 30 seconds after the TD.

The truth is disappointing. When Mercedes was 1.5 seconds off pole in 2015 without any regulations changes, no one bats and eye.

Monza cannot be used for the comparison as cars tend to run close there for the entire race.

Japan historically has not trended towards massive gaps either. You won't find anyone winning from another team by 30 seconds in the last decade, even amongst the dominant Mercs and RBs that we came to know.

[organic]

and they only won by 11 seconds in Monza. We are fortunate to have had Monza before the TD where they already didn't take pole because otherwise people would use Monza as evidence that they are no longer winning by 30 seconds after the TD.

The truth is disappointing. When Mercedes was 1.5 seconds off pole in 2015 without any regulations changes, no one bats and eye.

Monza cannot be used for the comparison as cars tend to run close there for the entire race.

Japan historically has not trended towards massive gaps either. You won't find anyone winning from another team by 30 seconds in the last decade, even amongst the dominant Mercs and RBs that we came to know.

Last year (in the wet) Max won by ~30s in ~30 laps

[AR3-GP]

Monza cannot be used for the comparison as cars tend to run close there for the entire race.

Japan historically has not trended towards massive gaps either. You won't find anyone winning from another team by 30 seconds in the last decade, even amongst the dominant Mercs and RBs that we came to know.

Last year (in the wet) Max won by ~30s in ~30 laps

That was a wet race to be fair.

[Juzh]

And Leclerc was on slicks at the end.

[AR3-GP]

If RB win by more than 30 seconds here, does that mean that the other teams were affected by the TD? It would make sense that this works both ways.

[mwillems]

If RB win by more than 30 seconds here, does that mean that the other teams were affected by the TD? It would make sense that this works both ways.

No, clearly Red Bull cheated somehow.

[Wouter]

If RB win by more than 30 seconds here, does that mean that the other teams were affected by the TD? It would make sense that this works both ways.

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No, clearly Red Bull cheated somehow.

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Why do you think RBR cheated? Could you explane please?

[TFSA]

If RB win by more than 30 seconds here, does that mean that the other teams were affected by the TD? It would make sense that this works both ways.

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No, clearly Red Bull cheated somehow.

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Why do you think RBR cheated? Could you explane please?

I think he's being ironic.

[mwillems]

If RB win by more than 30 seconds here, does that mean that the other teams were affected by the TD? It would make sense that this works both ways.

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No, clearly Red Bull cheated somehow.

.
Why do you think RBR cheated? Could you explane please?

It's in the future, I'm being dry regarding the inevitable response of some fans and the predetermined nature of their responses whilst kind of giving the flippant question the flippant response it deserved

[AR3-GP]

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No, clearly Red Bull cheated somehow.

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Why do you think RBR cheated? Could you explane please?

It's in the future, I'm being dry regarding the inevitable response of some fans and the predetermined nature of their responses whilst kind of giving the flippant question the flippant response it deserved

It was a serious question. There are teams who have been impacted by the TD but much of the legitimate discussion has been obfuscated by Singapore unfortunately. It's no surprise that most teams took advantage of Singapore to deflect attention towards RB but as we move back to a more traditional circuit, the teams who were affected will have to face reality.

See this report:

F1 | Aston Martin fears the TD018 and measures wing deflection
A sensor has appeared in the rear end of the AMR23 at Suzuka, pointing at two coloured sights located inside the side bulkhead of the rear wing. The Silverstone engineers monitor the flexing after the FIA's technical directive limiting movement. A metal reinforcement between the crash structure and the lower beam wing can also be seen on the 'green'. The diffuser wing that debuted at Zandvoort was also due to return to the scene: but the profile still affects the lifter and so it goes back into the... drawer.

Aston Martin wants to control wing deflection after the FIA tightened up its controls by introducing the TD018 technical directive in Singapore. At Suzuka, a curious aerodynamic shape appeared on the mono-pylon holding the rear wing of the AMR23: nothing strange because they are simply sensors able to measure the deflections of the side bulkheads.

In the picture taken from behind by our own Giorgio Piola, you can see the two purple and green coloured adhesive crosshairs positioned inside the side bulkhead which, when appropriately framed, can visualise what the movements are as aerodynamic load and speed increase.

On the subject of deflections of the aerodynamic elements, the metal reinforcements that have been fitted between the rear crash structure and the lower beam wing also do not escape notice, a sign that certain play between the parts is no longer permitted.

In the pits, the mechanics have already completed the rebuilding of Lance Stroll's car, who will be in his seat regularly in the Japanese GP after missing the Marina Bay race following the frightening accident in Q1 from which he had emerged. On one of the two AMR23s the small diffuser wing that had made a fleeting appearance at Zandvoort will also be seen again.

The wing, in fact, had seemed not very resistant to the loads and to the attachment of the car's lift, which had been specifically modified in Holland. The rear jack was further revised, but the problems seen in pit stop practice would have advised "parking" this micro-wing, so it should not even be seen in action at Suzuka.

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-as ... /10523015/

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F6i9S2zWUAE ... ame=medium

[Farnborough]

If RB win by more than 30 seconds here, does that mean that the other teams were affected by the TD? It would make sense that this works both ways.

An interesting question.

Some other comments in regard to general concept of others following RB for next years car, suggested that it would be bad given the Singapore experience.

If they all truly follow that route, then how would we see any dropout in Singapore next year?

Also, it could be flipped in reasoning, that to design a car which performed peerlessly in Singapore,, would then have no chance of beating an RB concept across most of the season's other races and tracks. Thereby demonstrating the whole season choicec RB made is the fastest one in championship competitiveness.

[Sieper]

RBR had an off weekend in Brazil last year, just goes to show that margins are in fact not that wide at all. Get set up wrong, make a wrong step last minute et voila, not even in Q3. Also the whole premise that RBR hás to win by 30 seconds and otherwise they are cheaters is Ofcourse the worst kind of statement to make. It’s just shifting the finish lines. Very unfair.

Perhaps we will indeed get more clear this weekend who was hit. Likely all teams a bit? Let’s see if there are outliers.

[mwillems]

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Why do you think RBR cheated? Could you explane please?

It's in the future, I'm being dry regarding the inevitable response of some fans and the predetermined nature of their responses whilst kind of giving the flippant question the flippant response it deserved

It was a serious question. There are teams who have been impacted by the TD but much of the legitimate discussion has been obfuscated by Singapore unfortunately. It's no surprise that most teams took advantage of Singapore to deflect attention towards RB but as we move back to a more traditional circuit, the teams who were affected will have to face reality.

See this report:

F1 | Aston Martin fears the TD018 and measures wing deflection
A sensor has appeared in the rear end of the AMR23 at Suzuka, pointing at two coloured sights located inside the side bulkhead of the rear wing. The Silverstone engineers monitor the flexing after the FIA's technical directive limiting movement. A metal reinforcement between the crash structure and the lower beam wing can also be seen on the 'green'. The diffuser wing that debuted at Zandvoort was also due to return to the scene: but the profile still affects the lifter and so it goes back into the... drawer.

Aston Martin wants to control wing deflection after the FIA tightened up its controls by introducing the TD018 technical directive in Singapore. At Suzuka, a curious aerodynamic shape appeared on the mono-pylon holding the rear wing of the AMR23: nothing strange because they are simply sensors able to measure the deflections of the side bulkheads.

In the picture taken from behind by our own Giorgio Piola, you can see the two purple and green coloured adhesive crosshairs positioned inside the side bulkhead which, when appropriately framed, can visualise what the movements are as aerodynamic load and speed increase.

On the subject of deflections of the aerodynamic elements, the metal reinforcements that have been fitted between the rear crash structure and the lower beam wing also do not escape notice, a sign that certain play between the parts is no longer permitted.

In the pits, the mechanics have already completed the rebuilding of Lance Stroll's car, who will be in his seat regularly in the Japanese GP after missing the Marina Bay race following the frightening accident in Q1 from which he had emerged. On one of the two AMR23s the small diffuser wing that had made a fleeting appearance at Zandvoort will also be seen again.

The wing, in fact, had seemed not very resistant to the loads and to the attachment of the car's lift, which had been specifically modified in Holland. The rear jack was further revised, but the problems seen in pit stop practice would have advised "parking" this micro-wing, so it should not even be seen in action at Suzuka.

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-as ... /10523015/

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F6i9S2zWUAE ... ame=medium

Well, it will take a few races to understand if we can see an impact as the data overcomes the ebb and flow of teams strengths and weaknesses at different tracks

If in a few races RB have extended their winning margins then someone could reasonably hypothesise that others have been adversely impacted.

But not after Japan, its not enough data, which is why I thought you were being obtuse. Any kinds of variation and anomaly could skew that result.

A large portion of this thread is the anticipation of confirmation bias, which is worse than the bias itself, like warming up the arguments for the various outcomes that could occur and the single driver on 2 of the sides is the anticipation of impact or no impact on RB.