2023 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Sep 22 - 24

For ease of use, there is one thread per grand prix where you can discuss everything during that specific GP weekend. You can find these threads here.
Farnborough
Farnborough
102
Joined: 18 Mar 2023, 14:15

Re: 2023 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Sep 22 - 24

Post

"How much grip the Red Bull has through the esses is just bonkers, in comparison Leclerc is braking everywhere and just has no bite.

And they do that with the best top speed..."


There's just fundamentally different approach to using tyres for the RB chassis and the adaption to these 18 inch rims. Tgat team really nailed it in basic understanding of what was needed for this element alone, makes me wonder if all the others have paid that much attention to this area.

Looking at comparison, the RB appears to use much less camber throughout it's suspension travel than the others (I've pointed that out before in comparison to SF23) and presenting the tread flatter to track surfaces under more of it's operating sphere, against what is usually considered "conventional" thinking for this aspect.

Watching some on board of them as they spin the rear tyres to leave from pitstop, you can see all of the tread area often start to scrub the whole way across (evident in Singapore coverage) as opposed to inner shoulders on most.

Verstappen approach of driving "softly" will likely make best use of this type geometry too. But still, base level understanding of what the tyres really need though is core to this design, and it seems far ahead of most, irrespective of aerodynamic superiority.

Slow to warm though :wtf: :D with some, ahem, unintentional consequences :D

Xyz22
Xyz22
123
Joined: 16 Feb 2022, 20:05

Re: 2023 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Sep 22 - 24

Post

Juzh wrote:
23 Sep 2023, 14:49
verstappen q3 lap
https://streamable.com/3qbcqu


piastri q3 lap
https://streamable.com/1gcxbq


leclerc q3 lap
https://streamable.com/oxjydm
Jesus christ. The difference in terms of downforce between RB and Ferrari is immense.

The understeer Leclerc has to manage in every corner makes my eyes bleed.

Thanks for the footage

Hammerfist
Hammerfist
0
Joined: 06 Apr 2017, 04:18

Re: 2023 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Sep 22 - 24

Post

Farnborough wrote:
23 Sep 2023, 15:07
Juzh wrote:
23 Sep 2023, 14:41
Artur Craft wrote:
23 Sep 2023, 12:58

One can see how terrible Pirelli is by looking at the cornering speeds, at the hairpin, of these cars, which are the same of the Super GT one, ~72 km/h :!: Those much heavier GT cars, with narrower tyres, should not be cornering at F1 speeds even on the corners in which downforce is far less relevant
I think pirellis have to be super hard to cope with downforce levels, which in turn is very detrimental to low speed performance. As there's no tyre war there's no incentive to invest massive sums in order to improve overall performance.
They have to be up to the task of holding onto getting toward 1000kg chucked into corner #1 at absolutely flat, along with very high lateral loading on all the high speed corners and particularly 130R....?..no surprise really that the structural resistance (tyre carcass) is not amenable to "slow" speed corner characteristic :wink:

Nothing really unusual in that.

Sometimes, you really can't have everything.
Without knowing the times and how it unfolded piastri looks quickest in s1 to me. He barely has to brake in the Esses and is still making good apexes. Only braked once that I can notice. Max has the highest top speed into turn one but he brakes more than Pia. The Ferrari has to do the most braking and definitely looks slower overall.

101FlyingDutchman
101FlyingDutchman
17
Joined: 27 Feb 2019, 12:01

Re: 2023 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Sep 22 - 24

Post

Hammerfist wrote:
23 Sep 2023, 19:19
Farnborough wrote:
23 Sep 2023, 15:07
Juzh wrote:
23 Sep 2023, 14:41

I think pirellis have to be super hard to cope with downforce levels, which in turn is very detrimental to low speed performance. As there's no tyre war there's no incentive to invest massive sums in order to improve overall performance.
They have to be up to the task of holding onto getting toward 1000kg chucked into corner #1 at absolutely flat, along with very high lateral loading on all the high speed corners and particularly 130R....?..no surprise really that the structural resistance (tyre carcass) is not amenable to "slow" speed corner characteristic :wink:

Nothing really unusual in that.

Sometimes, you really can't have everything.
Without knowing the times and how it unfolded piastri looks quickest in s1 to me. He barely has to brake in the Esses and is still making good apexes. Only braked once that I can notice. Max has the highest top speed into turn one but he brakes more than Pia. The Ferrari has to do the most braking and definitely looks slower overall.
You’d be wrong. Max pulls out most of the advantage in S1.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
365
Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: 2023 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Sep 22 - 24

Post

organic wrote:
23 Sep 2023, 05:35
Alfa romeo look pretty fast
I hate to bring this up :wink: :lol:
A lion must kill its prey.

Puffpirat
Puffpirat
1
Joined: 19 Jul 2022, 00:18

Re: 2023 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Sep 22 - 24

Post

101FlyingDutchman wrote:
23 Sep 2023, 19:20
Hammerfist wrote:
23 Sep 2023, 19:19
Farnborough wrote:
23 Sep 2023, 15:07


They have to be up to the task of holding onto getting toward 1000kg chucked into corner #1 at absolutely flat, along with very high lateral loading on all the high speed corners and particularly 130R....?..no surprise really that the structural resistance (tyre carcass) is not amenable to "slow" speed corner characteristic :wink:

Nothing really unusual in that.

Sometimes, you really can't have everything.
Without knowing the times and how it unfolded piastri looks quickest in s1 to me. He barely has to brake in the Esses and is still making good apexes. Only braked once that I can notice. Max has the highest top speed into turn one but he brakes more than Pia. The Ferrari has to do the most braking and definitely looks slower overall.
You’d be wrong. Max pulls out most of the advantage in S1.
Not sure were the Piastri was better in S1 comes from. Read it a few times here. Looking at min/apex speeds

VER-PIA
T2 173 165
T3 250 247
T4 237 226
T5 231 214
T6 190 197

Piastri was only faster in T6 but that compromised the entry to T7. Max didn’t brake at all after T2 until T6.

Hammerfist
Hammerfist
0
Joined: 06 Apr 2017, 04:18

Re: 2023 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Sep 22 - 24

Post

101FlyingDutchman wrote:
23 Sep 2023, 19:20
Hammerfist wrote:
23 Sep 2023, 19:19
Farnborough wrote:
23 Sep 2023, 15:07


They have to be up to the task of holding onto getting toward 1000kg chucked into corner #1 at absolutely flat, along with very high lateral loading on all the high speed corners and particularly 130R....?..no surprise really that the structural resistance (tyre carcass) is not amenable to "slow" speed corner characteristic :wink:

Nothing really unusual in that.

Sometimes, you really can't have everything.
Without knowing the times and how it unfolded piastri looks quickest in s1 to me. He barely has to brake in the Esses and is still making good apexes. Only braked once that I can notice. Max has the highest top speed into turn one but he brakes more than Pia. The Ferrari has to do the most braking and definitely looks slower overall.
You’d be wrong. Max pulls out most of the advantage in S1.
Actually most of his advantage is in sector 2. The difference in s1 is 2 tenths. And I said it looked to me, which means it’s not necessarily factual, just my opinion.

Hammerfist
Hammerfist
0
Joined: 06 Apr 2017, 04:18

Re: 2023 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Sep 22 - 24

Post

Puffpirat wrote:
23 Sep 2023, 19:40
101FlyingDutchman wrote:
23 Sep 2023, 19:20
Hammerfist wrote:
23 Sep 2023, 19:19


Without knowing the times and how it unfolded piastri looks quickest in s1 to me. He barely has to brake in the Esses and is still making good apexes. Only braked once that I can notice. Max has the highest top speed into turn one but he brakes more than Pia. The Ferrari has to do the most braking and definitely looks slower overall.
You’d be wrong. Max pulls out most of the advantage in S1.
Not sure were the Piastri was better in S1 comes from. Read it a few times here. Looking at min/apex speeds

VER-PIA
T2 173 165
T3 250 247
T4 237 226
T5 231 214
T6 190 197

Piastri was only faster in T6 but that compromised the entry to T7. Max didn’t brake at all after T2 until T6.
I was wrong indeed. It’s just different approaches. Max doesn’t brake for t4 while piastri does but max brakes for t6 while piastri doesn’t.

napoleon1981
napoleon1981
3
Joined: 12 Sep 2021, 17:19

Re: 2023 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Sep 22 - 24

Post

ringo wrote:
23 Sep 2023, 17:06
napoleon1981 wrote:
23 Sep 2023, 16:24
I think verstappen was keeping the tires alive, saving it there yields 2 tenths out of the triangle. Sharp on the pedals is a bad thing.
If you know the car has the grip and you are confident you will get drive i do not think it is bad.
Verstappen is deliberately not upsetting the aero platform, slowly rolling on the throttle, keeping the life in the tire. Piastri is stomping on it like a rookie would. Looks fast, but not the best way to drive the car. I think there is a good chance verstappen would have put that mclaren on pole too.

avantman
avantman
10
Joined: 07 Dec 2020, 19:17

Re: 2023 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Sep 22 - 24

Post

Hammerfist wrote:
23 Sep 2023, 19:53
Actually most of his advantage is in sector 2. The difference in s1 is 2 tenths. And I said it looked to me, which means it’s not necessarily factual, just my opinion.
on these laps,
VER S1 30.725
PIA S1 31.173
0.448s delta
Very poor S1 from Piastri. Even in T7, where he had higher minimal speed than Max, he lost a lot on the exit and all the way through the following straight due to tighter compromised line, causing hesitation on the throttle. Max dropped more speed on purpose to take a wider straighter line through Dunlop. That all is very visible on the onboards.
Oscar S1 was a lot slower than Lando and his own S1 on the 2nd run, which was 30.952, Lando was still faster with 30.916, and in general faster than Oscar on S1 all weekend. There was a lot more pace in Mclaren.

emp
emp
1
Joined: 08 Feb 2015, 15:57

Re: 2023 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Sep 22 - 24

Post

^So none of the Mclaren drivers could unlock that 'lot more' pace that you say it had ? That whole 4 hundreds when the difference is half a second? Some people...

Farnborough
Farnborough
102
Joined: 18 Mar 2023, 14:15

Re: 2023 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Sep 22 - 24

Post

napoleon1981 wrote:
23 Sep 2023, 20:31
ringo wrote:
23 Sep 2023, 17:06
napoleon1981 wrote:
23 Sep 2023, 16:24
I think verstappen was keeping the tires alive, saving it there yields 2 tenths out of the triangle. Sharp on the pedals is a bad thing.
If you know the car has the grip and you are confident you will get drive i do not think it is bad.
Verstappen is deliberately not upsetting the aero platform, slowly rolling on the throttle, keeping the life in the tire. Piastri is stomping on it like a rookie would. Looks fast, but not the best way to drive the car. I think there is a good chance verstappen would have put that mclaren on pole too.
This...MV so "polite" with the car, easing it through changes with "soft" hands and feet, letting it take a natural line....watch 130R.....with exquisite economy of distance and chassis calmness.

A real masterclass in getting co-operation from a mechanical device. :D

avantman
avantman
10
Joined: 07 Dec 2020, 19:17

Re: 2023 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Sep 22 - 24

Post

emp wrote:
23 Sep 2023, 21:15
^So none of the Mclaren drivers could unlock that 'lot more' pace that you say it had ? That whole 4 hundreds when the difference is half a second? Some people...
4 hundreds mate? try maths.

emp
emp
1
Joined: 08 Feb 2015, 15:57

Re: 2023 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Sep 22 - 24

Post

avantman wrote:
23 Sep 2023, 20:39
Hammerfist wrote:
23 Sep 2023, 19:53
Actually most of his advantage is in sector 2. The difference in s1 is 2 tenths. And I said it looked to me, which means it’s not necessarily factual, just my opinion.
on these laps,
VER S1 30.725
PIA S1 31.173
0.448s delta
Very poor S1 from Piastri. Even in T7, where he had higher minimal speed than Max, he lost a lot on the exit and all the way through the following straight due to tighter compromised line, causing hesitation on the throttle. Max dropped more speed on purpose to take a wider straighter line through Dunlop. That all is very visible on the onboards.
Oscar S1 was a lot slower than Lando and his own S1 on the 2nd run, which was 30.952, Lando was still faster with 30.916, and in general faster than Oscar on S1 all weekend. There was a lot more pace in Mclaren.
Mate, remember what you wrote and tell me from your math where is that lot more pace that you think Mclaren had other then the difference in the S1 which was ~4 hundreds according to you: 30.952 - 30.916. Both drivers were slower on the 2nd run, who knows why, but there wasn't more pace in that car, as the results say. I think they (Mclaren) know better than an armchair expert, even on a technical forum, and they are happy with it. Just because you believe something doesn't make it real, sorry to say. The could've, would've, should've aren't arguments. Just move on and enjoy the sport.

User avatar
ringo
230
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: 2023 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Sep 22 - 24

Post

The mclaren has a smaller operating window than the Redbull and is generally slower. Max doesnt have to push as hard and he himself could go faster. His engineer was unusually egging him on as if faster times were done in simulator.

No way the mclaren is on pole with another driver.
Piastri and Norris are both on the limit with the car. Max not so much if you see his steering inputs.
What's interesting is the mclaren bottoming out on the run down to turn 1 and 2. Neither ferrari no redbull bottom out as much. The car is riding very low.
For Sure!!