Which team is most likely to catch redbull before 2026 discussion

[diffuser]

Ferrari and McLaren use two different PUs. I believe Mclaren uses its own gearbox and only uses Mercedes HPP PU like Mercedes. Most of the differences in performance will be in areas outside of the Powertrains, like chassis, aero, suspension, etc... Outside of of Powetrains reliability, I do not see how Ferrari OR Mercedes (Gearbox difference) would have any advantage. Zero pod refers to aero and not to the Powertrain.

See below. The Mercedes power unit packaging was determined by zero pod aerodynamics. Mercedes now that they are switching away from Zero pod will repackage the power unit which will enable better thermal management and more power next season. The Mercedes customer cars have all struggled with PU temperatures in the races. I don't have time to dig out all of the sources, but the issues have been there all season even if not heavily reported on. The Merc PU is compromised. Mclaren is defenseless against these kinds of decisions because they are only a customer.

The change of concept regarding the side structures of the car has already been partially introduced this season, with the new bellies already oriented towards the RedBull philosophy, but, obviously, it was not possible to carry out a redesign and modification of the components of the Power Unit for the current season. The 2024 car, however, will be born directly with the new philosophy, both as regards the bottom and as regards the upper part of the car, and the space limitations will become decidedly less stringent, with the possibility of a "re-packaging" of the drive unit that will give at that point much more comfort to the internal components, gaining in reliability (and therefore in percentage of use) and, especially, of course, in pure power. We spoke to an engineer from the team who confirmed all this, stating that the aggregate that Mercedes currently uses was designed for the zero pods concept, with very small dimensions and a cooling system inevitably reduced to a minimum. Despite the limitations set out so far, our contact told us that the data analyzed at Brixworth tell of a driving unit that does not fear comparison with rivals, and indeed in certain conditions has even proved to be the most effective. For this reason, at Mercedes there is a fair optimism on the engine front for next season, when the reorganization of the hood volumes and "sidepods" (the bellies) will allow a more generous layout of the components and sizing. We will therefore see if in 2024 we will find a Mercedes Power Unit again able to excel and overshadow rival units as already happened from 2014 onwards.

https://www.formulapassion.it/opinioni/ ... nza-motore

That's exactly what I was trying to say !

The PU is frozen so nothing can be changed and radiators are not part of the sale of the PUs. Each team has to build their own, along with the exhaust.

[AR3-GP]

See below. The Mercedes power unit packaging was determined by zero pod aerodynamics. Mercedes now that they are switching away from Zero pod will repackage the power unit which will enable better thermal management and more power next season. The Mercedes customer cars have all struggled with PU temperatures in the races. I don't have time to dig out all of the sources, but the issues have been there all season even if not heavily reported on. The Merc PU is compromised. Mclaren is defenseless against these kinds of decisions because they are only a customer.



https://www.formulapassion.it/opinioni/ ... nza-motore

That's exactly what I was trying to say !

The PU is frozen so nothing can be changed and radiators are not part of the sale of the PUs. Each team has to build their own, along with the exhaust.

Greetings

The PU isn't frozen. It's layout can be changed for reliability reasons.

Also, the only part of the exhaust that the individual customers modify is the part behind the turbine.

[Stu]

That's exactly what I was trying to say !

The PU is frozen so nothing can be changed and radiators are not part of the sale of the PUs. Each team has to build their own, along with the exhaust.

Greetings

The PU isn't frozen. It's layout can be changed for reliability reasons.

Also, the only part of the exhaust that the individual customers modify is the part behind the turbine.

Personally, I would say that as outlined in the quoted article, such changes would be classed by both the FIA and other PU suppliers as performance upgrades.
As @Diffuser stated cooling systems are free (beyond the PU itself).
Renault did get special dispensation to move a water pump for this season as they were able to conclusively prove that it harmed reliability during normal operation.

[AR3-GP]

The PU is frozen so nothing can be changed and radiators are not part of the sale of the PUs. Each team has to build their own, along with the exhaust.

Greetings

The PU isn't frozen. It's layout can be changed for reliability reasons.

Also, the only part of the exhaust that the individual customers modify is the part behind the turbine.

Personally, I would say that as outlined in the quoted article, such changes would be classed by both the FIA and other PU suppliers as performance upgrades.

What matters is what they get past the FIA. That is seemingly quite a bit if the article is anything to go by.

[organic]

It's my understanding that essentially every requested change is approved by other manufacturers and the FIA. The engine freeze has prevented changes in engine architecture but the teams are all still improving the performance significantly under the "freeze" by putting upgrades through as reliability changes: you can claim something allows you to run the engine for longer hence reliability but it will also let you run it harder and have the same longevity. It's difficult to unpick these two factors

Mercedes' ERS is one such example: in 2022 it was significantly behind on the ers department wrt Ferrari and RB. This season both Ferrari and Merc made large inroads into Honda's ers advantage, with Merc making a huge step forward

[AR3-GP]

It's all the more strange that Renault wanted more fuel. I think they just don't know how to develop their PU anymore.

[diffuser]

The PU is frozen so nothing can be changed and radiators are not part of the sale of the PUs. Each team has to build their own, along with the exhaust.

Greetings

The PU isn't frozen. It's layout can be changed for reliability reasons.

Also, the only part of the exhaust that the individual customers modify is the part behind the turbine.

LOL.

That's the definition of Frozen, it can't be changed unless you can prove a reliability issue.

You're gonna be hard pressed to convince people you're having reliability problems being caused by the PU layout when the reality is that the problem is you don't want to run bigger rads or open up vents. You'll get no sympathy from Alpine, who's always running more cooling that any of the Mercs. Both of those Items aren't frozen.

[stephen]

McLaren or Mercedes are the two likely ones but I am not sure they are going to beat them in the constructors championship. We may see the competition goes into the last few races but it would be nearly impossible that we see any team beating them any time soon.

[AR3-GP]

The PU is frozen so nothing can be changed and radiators are not part of the sale of the PUs. Each team has to build their own, along with the exhaust.

Greetings

The PU isn't frozen. It's layout can be changed for reliability reasons.

Also, the only part of the exhaust that the individual customers modify is the part behind the turbine.

LOL.

That's the definition of Frozen, it can't be changed unless you can prove a reliability issue.

You're gonna be hard pressed to convince people you're having reliability problems being caused by the PU layout when the reality is that the problem is you don't want to run bigger rads or open up vents. You'll get no sympathy from Alpine, who's always running more cooling that any of the Mercs. Both of those Items aren't frozen.

Greetings again

In theory it's "frozen", but the engine manufacturers have been taking the piss. Renault's problem is that they don't know how to improve the PU the way the others have, through reliability.

[Cs98]

Greetings

The PU isn't frozen. It's layout can be changed for reliability reasons.

Also, the only part of the exhaust that the individual customers modify is the part behind the turbine.

LOL.

That's the definition of Frozen, it can't be changed unless you can prove a reliability issue.

You're gonna be hard pressed to convince people you're having reliability problems being caused by the PU layout when the reality is that the problem is you don't want to run bigger rads or open up vents. You'll get no sympathy from Alpine, who's always running more cooling that any of the Mercs. Both of those Items aren't frozen.

Greetings again

In theory it's "frozen", but the engine manufacturers have been taking the piss. Renault's problem is that they don't know how to improve the PU the way the others have, through reliability.

The reliability argument may have flown last season for some, but no one has truly poor reliability currently, so it will be hard to get approval for any major changes.

[Hammerfist]

McLaren or Mercedes are the two likely ones but I am not sure they are going to beat them in the constructors championship. We may see the competition goes into the last few races but it would be nearly impossible that we see any team beating them any time soon.

They are beatable in the constructors. They get so little from the second driver. If Mclaren or Merc started the season with their current level of cars RBR would not have won the constructors. If these cars get closer or even with the RBR next year, they can kiss the constructors goodbye, although Max will likely still win the drivers.

[stephen]

McLaren or Mercedes are the two likely ones but I am not sure they are going to beat them in the constructors championship. We may see the competition goes into the last few races but it would be nearly impossible that we see any team beating them any time soon.

They are beatable in the constructors. They get so little from the second driver. If Mclaren or Merc started the season with their current level of cars RBR would not have won the constructors. If these cars get closer or even with the RBR next year, they can kiss the constructors goodbye, although Max will likely still win the drivers.

Yes, at the moment their second driver isn't doing great but he looked good yesterday and he is still at second place on the drivers championship ranking. He must deliver at least one podium finish in the remaining races this season or we may see him replaced next season. I think he'll get that podium finish in Mexico.

[CHT]

Eddie Jordan thinks it going to be boring 2024 and perhaps 2025

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/1038512/1 ... s-mercedes

[CHT]

After watching Austin and Mexico GP (despite some glimmer of hope) I still think it will be hard for any team to challenge Max next year. In fact, if RB19 technology made its way to AT for the 2024 season, we may see AT in the fight for the best of rest.

Perez will be under pressure to perform if he can't get his form back because RBR needs both cars to perform in order to win the WCC. There is a lot of prize money at stake

[TFSA]

In fact, if RB19 technology made its way to AT for the 2024 season, we may see AT in the fight for the best of rest.

Don't get your hopes up for AT. They still won't be able to copy the Red Bull aero design.

This weekend was just a one-off. I've of the things AT nailed this weekend was the cooling - they found an exact tradeoff between that and performance, which gave them an aero advantage.