2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[214270]

After 8 consecutive of WCC to fire the technical team just because of drivers feedback is not good for morale of the people working at the factory.

Hope this decision doesn't back fire because James Allison is no superman he has his fair share dry spell without winning any championship

But he wasnt TD for all those titles, Most he was head aero, then moved to TD in 2017 in a joint role with Allison after Lowe left, Before then, Lowe was the leader on design, Not ME.

Do you not find it funny how after LH and GR complain that they wasnt being listened to with the car design and all of a sudden Allison is back?

Ofc its important, if they cant drive the car, then the car is no good.

Allison is more or less the same when it comes to driver feedback. Drivers know nothing about car design. The behaviors they feel can be useful when interpreted through an engineer, but a driver's own solutions are not the path to go. Eliminating bad behaviors is what they should do, but there's no reason to suggest Elliott wasn't trying to do that. As we can see below, the solution to such problems isn't necessarily what a driver imagines.

I think that drivers sometimes conflate identifying a problem with knowing what the solution is. Where it’s a massive help is the accurate description of what is difficult about extracting lap time from the car.

If they can say ‘here it is letting me down because the front axle is too weak, here it’s letting me down because the rear axle is too weak. Here, it just feels bizarre and I don’t trust it’ that’s ever so helpful because you can have a million pressure sensors on the car, loads of load cells, accelerometers up the ying yang, but ultimately, those are a little bit sort of stunted in their ability to tell you truly what the car is doing.

The driver is a much better sensor. So if a driver says ‘the car’s lacking rear downforce, bang, I’ve solved it, go to the rear downforce shop, get me some downforce’ then that’s the point where it becomes slightly less helpful.

But at that point, we just have to accept the car is lacking in a certain thing and it’s our job as Lewis rightly points out.

He doesn’t design the car, it’s our job to respond with the solutions that bring that. But I think that he could rightfully say that both he and George [Russell] had been saying a particular consistent thing about the car since the first laps of the 2022 cousin of this one and the 2023 version inherited that same behaviour and we have been slow to react, slow to fix.

He debunked this "driver solution" too.

“I had some conversations with Lewis about it. I don’t think the seating position is a big factor in the problems he feels with the car.

“It’s not like we’re talking about 20 centimetres. Lewis has driven cars where he has sat even further forward.

“What he is right about is the criticism of the car’s road holding. It is our task to eliminate this weakness – because that is lap time.

“If we change the seating position, it is for many other reasons and not because we think that alone will solve all the problems for Lewis.”

I just don’t know how it wouldn’t affect feel, the rear seems so distant on the Merc chassis. And btw the Rbs aren’t shown on the graphic and they sit a touch further back still!

[Mosin123]

That’s not true. Horner has specifically said the RB, like every other car, is simply designed to be the theoretically fastest car possible

Every team chases a target of balance across a range of speeds. It is up to the driver to adapt to get the most out of it

" Max Verstappen is leading Red Bull from a car development point of view, says team principal Christian Horner."

Allison is more or less the same when it comes to driver feedback. Drivers know nothing about car design. The behaviors they feel can be useful when interpreted through an engineer, but a driver's own solutions are not the path to go. Eliminating bad behaviors is what they should do, but there's no reason to suggest Elliott wasn't trying to do that. As we can see below, the solution to such problems isn't necessarily what a driver imagines.


He debunked this "driver solution" too.

" "Obviously, [when] you go back to before data recorders, the only thing the race engineer had to go on really was the driver's feedback.

“So the feedback of the driver, and the feel the driver had, was all-important.

"Now, with data recorders, you could argue that you don't need that.

“But, in my view, in truth you do, because data recorders tell you what the car is doing.

"[But it's] very difficult to see why the car is doing it – that's where the driver comes in. "

No one is saying driver feedback is useless. It's useful in describing how the car behaves, it is not useful when determining the technical reasons why the car behaves that way. That's why you have engineers who understand the car's design, and how to change it to accomplish a desired outcome. But you don't need drivers saying "we need to change this and that, we need the seat further back, and the sidepod to look like that car". That kind of feedback is not useful.

No one ever advised that the seat needed moving. Your own copy and paste of Allisons comments said that " “I had some conversations with Lewis about it. I don’t think the seating position is a big factor in the problems he feels with the car.

“It’s not like we’re talking about 20 centimetres. Lewis has driven cars where he has sat even further forward.

“What he is right about is the criticism of the car’s road holding. It is our task to eliminate this weakness – because that is lap time.

“If we change the seating position, it is for many other reasons and not because we think that alone will solve all the problems for Lewis.”

He also said " The driver is a much better sensor. So if a driver says ‘the car’s lacking rear downforce, bang, I’ve solved it, go to the rear downforce shop, get me some downforce’ then that’s the point where it becomes slightly less helpful.

But at that point, we just have to accept the car is lacking in a certain thing and it’s our job as Lewis rightly points out."

So its their job to sort out the things the driver says the car is lacking...... His words... you linked them.......... if you want to discredit a drivers feedback, even though the greatest of greats Neways says differently. Keep going.

I mean - Drivers complain ME isnt taking on board things they say, Allison in your comment also points out that the drivers concerns wasnt listened to in 2022 and so the same problem carried over into 2023 and il quote " both he and George [Russell] had been saying a particular consistent thing about the car since the first laps of the 2022 cousin of this one and the 2023 version inherited that same behaviour and we have been slow to react, slow to fix. " << Allison wasnt back to design the 2023 car.......

[the EDGE]

I deleted all the previous comments because it was just too confusing to read, but here is what Horner says…

“It shows a total lack of understanding of how a race car and team develop if Toto thinks that we’re developing a car around a single driver.

“You develop a car to be as quick as you can and sometimes quick cars are difficult cars. That’s what has historically been the case.

“The good drivers adapt, you see in wet conditions, mixed, varied, conditions – the elite adapt quickly, and I think that one of his key skill sets is his ability to adapt to the feeling and the grip levels that a car gives him.

“But there’s certainly no direction to say oh, we tailor something to suit one specific driver. We’re just trying to design and build the fastest car that we can, and our tools, our simulation, and our wind tunnel, provide us with that direction.”

https://www.planetf1.com/news/christian ... erstanding

[Mosin123]

I deleted all the previous comments because it was just too confusing to read, but here is what Horner says…

“It shows a total lack of understanding of how a race car and team develop if Toto thinks that we’re developing a car around a single driver.

“You develop a car to be as quick as you can and sometimes quick cars are difficult cars. That’s what has historically been the case.

“The good drivers adapt, you see in wet conditions, mixed, varied, conditions – the elite adapt quickly, and I think that one of his key skill sets is his ability to adapt to the feeling and the grip levels that a car gives him.

“But there’s certainly no direction to say oh, we tailor something to suit one specific driver. We’re just trying to design and build the fastest car that we can, and our tools, our simulation, and our wind tunnel, provide us with that direction.”

https://www.planetf1.com/news/christian ... erstanding

Thats him dismissing Toto claim they design the car around Max........

Ive just shown you what Neway, the actual person who designs the car said. Horner speaks more PR than a cow does you know....

Ill go by what Neway says, And Horner also said Max is the leading development of the redbull....

Either he is, or he isnt, Mr Honer contradicts him self much of the time.

[Cs98]

So its their job to sort out the things the driver says the car is lacking...... His words... you linked them.......... if you want to discredit a drivers feedback, even though the greatest of greats Neways says differently. Keep going.

I mean - Drivers complain ME isnt taking on board things they say, Allison in your comment also points out that the drivers concerns wasnt listened to in 2022 and so the same problem carried over into 2023 and il quote " both he and George [Russell] had been saying a particular consistent thing about the car since the first laps of the 2022 cousin of this one and the 2023 version inherited that same behaviour and we have been slow to react, slow to fix. " << Allison wasnt back to design the 2023 car.......

Newey says exactly what I'm saying, but keep ignoring that. It's their job to come up with solutions, not the driver. The driver might identify something that feels wrong, and that is why their feedback has value. Though at Merc these roles seem to have been somewhat conflated, which is reflected in Allison's comments too. From the seating position to making obvious references the team needs to go down the RB route, this is not in the domain of a driver's expertise. Also, we don't know what ME did or did not listen to. There would be little point in him ignoring weaknesses in the car, at the same time that doesn't mean he's going to implement every solution that a driver who has no knowledge of car design comes up with. But this is what happens when a team has a blame culture. Different parts of the team just go back and forth. X didn't listen, Y doesn't know the solution. These are perfectly legitimate conversations to have behind closed doors, but once you drag them out in the light of day it goes from being constructive to publicly assigning blame.

[ValeVida46]

Newey says exactly what I'm saying, but keep ignoring that. It's their job to come up with solutions, not the driver. The driver might identify something that feels wrong, and that is why their feedback has value. Though at Merc these roles seem to have been somewhat conflated, which is reflected in Allison's comments too. From the seating position to making obvious references the team needs to go down the RB route, this is not in the domain of a driver's expertise. Also, we don't know what ME did or did not listen to. There would be little point in him ignoring weaknesses in the car, at the same time that doesn't mean he's going to implement every solution that a driver who has no knowledge of car design comes up with. But this is what happens when a team has a blame culture. Different parts of the team just go back and forth. X didn't listen, Y doesn't know the solution. These are perfectly legitimate conversations to have behind closed doors, but once you drag them out in the light of day it goes from being constructive to publicly assigning blame.

I don't see why a driver giving his view of things is different to any other.

Nobody here is suggesting Hamilton is a designer. Hamilton drives the car and gives his views on that, again like any driver. This is a completely normal situation.
Allison in the quote did not shut the idea down, he points out clearly that this alone will not solve all the issues.

Lewis doesn’t like the handling of the car and he sits in a different position compared to before
Whether one is connected to the other, I don’t want to judge. I had some conversations with Lewis about it.
I don’t think the seating position is a big factor in the problems he feels with the car.
It’s not like we’re talking about 20 centimetres. Lewis has driven cars where he has sat even further forward.
What he is right about is the criticism of the car’s road holding. It is our task to eliminate this weakness, because that is lap time.
If we change the seating position, it is for many other reasons and not because we think that alone will solve all the problems for Lewis

This should help for added context.
If we are to criticise drivers who are calling for their teams to follow the winning cars ideas, we may as well just criticise them all for it. I see no need to isolate this one case as exceptional.

And blame culture? He had 2 bites of the cherry. Left of his own accord.

[Cs98]

Newey says exactly what I'm saying, but keep ignoring that. It's their job to come up with solutions, not the driver. The driver might identify something that feels wrong, and that is why their feedback has value. Though at Merc these roles seem to have been somewhat conflated, which is reflected in Allison's comments too. From the seating position to making obvious references the team needs to go down the RB route, this is not in the domain of a driver's expertise. Also, we don't know what ME did or did not listen to. There would be little point in him ignoring weaknesses in the car, at the same time that doesn't mean he's going to implement every solution that a driver who has no knowledge of car design comes up with. But this is what happens when a team has a blame culture. Different parts of the team just go back and forth. X didn't listen, Y doesn't know the solution. These are perfectly legitimate conversations to have behind closed doors, but once you drag them out in the light of day it goes from being constructive to publicly assigning blame.

I don't see why a driver giving his view of things is different to any other.

Nobody here is suggesting Hamilton is a designer. Hamilton drives the car and gives his views on that, again like any driver. This is a completely normal situation.
Allison in the quote did not shut the idea down, he points out clearly that this alone will not solve all the issues.

Lewis doesn’t like the handling of the car and he sits in a different position compared to before
Whether one is connected to the other, I don’t want to judge. I had some conversations with Lewis about it.
I don’t think the seating position is a big factor in the problems he feels with the car.
It’s not like we’re talking about 20 centimetres. Lewis has driven cars where he has sat even further forward.
What he is right about is the criticism of the car’s road holding. It is our task to eliminate this weakness, because that is lap time.
If we change the seating position, it is for many other reasons and not because we think that alone will solve all the problems for Lewis

This should help for added context.
If we are to criticise drivers who are calling for their teams to follow the winning cars ideas, we may as well just criticise them all for it. I see no need to isolate this one case as exceptional.

And blame culture? He had 2 bites of the cherry. Left of his own accord.

As long as everyone is on the same page in understanding that drivers coming up with concrete solutions is not really a thing, it's fine. The problem is when you have people actually taking "driver solutions" seriously and somehow using it to claim the engineers aren't listening and not doing anything about it. Designing a winning car is a lot harder than moving a seat and copying the prevailing concept, some would say the latter is in fact resigning yourself to not winning.

And blame culture? He had 2 bites of the cherry. Left of his own accord.

Indeed a blame culture. The fact we have drivers in the media complaining engineers aren't listening and engineers in the media trying to explain why they aren't necessarily listening. It sounds a lot like a blame culture, a war of words in the media. There's no reason to have these discussions in public unless you are trying to assign blame in the eyes of the public. Him leaving of his own accord doesn't change much, would you want to work in an environment where your star driver is essentially engaging the media to make you look bad? Allison is hopefully more resilient to this kind of nonsense.

[TFSA]

It doesn't matter if a technical director or CTO listens to drivers or not. If the car isn't faster, some head has to roll or move aside. In this case, it's Mike. He was the chief aerodynamicist and technology director when the same driver won 6 championships and Mercedes winning 8 constructors. Not listening to driver feedback is a moot point. Lack of results is.

I am sure we will see Allison booted out in near future if the results doesn't come next year even if he listened to the drivers.

You seem to assume that he was fired. Sounds more to me like he quit.

If the car continued to be bad, what you're saying would make sense. But it seems like Mercedes is on a good path to recovery at the moment.

[mkay]

Elliott was clearly a key component to the 8 consecutive world championships and therefore one of the most successful engineers in the sport, otherwise he simply never would've been promoted to the TD role. Has the last 2 years reflected in a stellar way on him? Nobody could argue it has I think.

But to ignore it or claim it's going to make things better I think is having your blinders on.. The loss of further key technical staff that has already been happening on some scale of late to Merc is a little worrying

He was a key member of the aerodynamic team in the mid/late-2010s. He is clearly a very sound engineer, but it's also fair to say he doesn't have as good a grasp on ground effect aerodynamics as he did on the prior regs'. His zeropod concept hasn't worked and his stubbornness to keep it on for 2023 has arguably cost Mercedes 2 years' worth of development into a sounder concept.

With Elliott off the wage bill, this will allow Mercedes to promote from within or otherwise aggressively poach a rival team's engineer.

[Big Tea]

A driver can not make a car faster, but if they do not trust it they can leave time unclaimed. It would be wise to make sure the driver is comfortable right up to the limit of the car, possibly even if it means loosing hundredths in real ability. Good drivers should be able to adapt, but there are two drives who may not agree.

[mendis]

It doesn't matter if a technical director or CTO listens to drivers or not. If the car isn't faster, some head has to roll or move aside. In this case, it's Mike. He was the chief aerodynamicist and technology director when the same driver won 6 championships and Mercedes winning 8 constructors. Not listening to driver feedback is a moot point. Lack of results is.

I am sure we will see Allison booted out in near future if the results doesn't come next year even if he listened to the drivers.

You seem to assume that he was fired. Sounds more to me like he quit.

If the car continued to be bad, what you're saying would make sense. But it seems like Mercedes is on a good path to recovery at the moment.

It's not hard to assume he was fired as he is redundant to the scheme of things. Either ways, it makes no difference to Mercedes situation.

If you remember, Mercedes finished a close third with 515 points last year with one win. Also ended the year seemingly having the second best car. This year they have 371 points with 4 races to go and so far, without a win. Also appearing to be the second best car in race trim. So it's hard to understand what has changed. They continue to be so far behind on race pace against RB19, similar to last year. As Lewis said in a recent interview, while they are bringing constant upgrades, RB are just chilling and running with the car that they barely upgraded after summer break. Same situation as last year. Other than the Toto and other folks claiming things look better, the facts doesn't support the same story.

[CHT]

This departure is somewhat abrupt and there was no announcement of replacement.

Fron Elliot comments, he mentioned about winning 8 WCC and thank his team without mentioning about Toto etc. I have reason to believe there was a fallout. Reminds me of the time when Newey had fall out with Ron Dennis who coincidentally is also team owner.


It will be interesting to see where Merc go from here..for sure Elliot departure will have some effect on some staffs who have worked with him all these years, from fighting to win races to multiple world champion

[Mosin123]

So its their job to sort out the things the driver says the car is lacking...... His words... you linked them.......... if you want to discredit a drivers feedback, even though the greatest of greats Neways says differently. Keep going.

I mean - Drivers complain ME isnt taking on board things they say, Allison in your comment also points out that the drivers concerns wasnt listened to in 2022 and so the same problem carried over into 2023 and il quote " both he and George [Russell] had been saying a particular consistent thing about the car since the first laps of the 2022 cousin of this one and the 2023 version inherited that same behaviour and we have been slow to react, slow to fix. " << Allison wasnt back to design the 2023 car.......

Newey says exactly what I'm saying, but keep ignoring that. It's their job to come up with solutions, not the driver. The driver might identify something that feels wrong, and that is why their feedback has value. Though at Merc these roles seem to have been somewhat conflated, which is reflected in Allison's comments too. From the seating position to making obvious references the team needs to go down the RB route, this is not in the domain of a driver's expertise. Also, we don't know what ME did or did not listen to. There would be little point in him ignoring weaknesses in the car, at the same time that doesn't mean he's going to implement every solution that a driver who has no knowledge of car design comes up with. But this is what happens when a team has a blame culture. Different parts of the team just go back and forth. X didn't listen, Y doesn't know the solution. These are perfectly legitimate conversations to have behind closed doors, but once you drag them out in the light of day it goes from being constructive to publicly assigning blame.

I never said it was the drivers job, i said their feedback is important. If you want to dismiss it, thats fine.

Maybe Merc should go back to not fixing the drivers concerns after 2 years before Allison returned yeah?

[ValeVida46]

Indeed a blame culture. The fact we have drivers in the media complaining engineers aren't listening and engineers in the media trying to explain why they aren't necessarily listening. It sounds a lot like a blame culture, a war of words in the media. There's no reason to have these discussions in public unless you are trying to assign blame in the eyes of the public. Him leaving of his own accord doesn't change much, would you want to work in an environment where your star driver is essentially engaging the media to make you look bad? Allison is hopefully more resilient to this kind of nonsense.

There are better examples of blame culture, we could have a team boss, and TD whinging about engines every year for over a decade. Publicly.
There are direct and natural consequences to failure at the highest level.
Elliott was replaced and eventually left of his volition.

I don't see why you are targeting Hamilton and trying to paint this as his fault. That's negative engagement.

[cplchanb]

This departure is somewhat abrupt and there was no announcement of replacement.

Fron Elliot comments, he mentioned about winning 8 WCC and thank his team without mentioning about Toto etc. I have reason to believe there was a fallout. Reminds me of the time when Newey had fall out with Ron Dennis who coincidentally is also team owner.


It will be interesting to see where Merc go from here..for sure Elliot departure will have some effect on some staffs who have worked with him all these years, from fighting to win races to multiple world champion

Honestly i think the position of CTO at merc is just a job to keep someone on the payroll. most of the day to day duties are already covered by the TD of the team. CTO seems more like an emeritus position.