Massa crashes after being hit by heave spring

[modbaraban]

He came off the throttle and the deceleration of the car (due to aero drag and hitting the curbs) sent his uncontious body slightly forward which caused very mild braking (+ no grip). The deceleration looked very insignificant. Thus slight and inconsistent skid marks from the front tyres.

[mpbx3003]

Kimi in Monza 2007 went really far forward as well.

I don't think you can really compare those two crashes, Massa's head doesn't look restrained at all. You can see the bottom edge on the back of Massa's helmet, but Kimi's head only goes far enough to see halfway down the back. That said, Kimi's head does go further than usual. Maybe Ferrari have some problem with the device.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply they were very similar in nature, just that Kimi had an accident with little or no braking into a tire wall and his head snapped pretty far forward even while conscious. I truly believe he was completely out after the spring hit after watching the video again. He didn't even let go of the wheel and I've seen plenty of times someone knocked out and they were still holding something even after hitting the floor.

Really, I think the Kimi crash is important here. The fact that you can easily see the extreme difference in head movement, in a not so different accident. Massa was quicker, but altogether there are similar forces going on. Because of the Kimi crash, one can't say that it's the result of Felipe being unconscious. It is impossible to hold your head up in an crash, so the fact that Massa went so much further forward is intriguing. Why was there so much give in the HANS? That's a question for a proper investigation, but it needs to be asked.

[djos]

I heard enough of this stuff after the Surtees accident... look, accidents in motor racing are always "freak", but that does not mean that the risks can't be reduced.

The FIA needs to seriously consider shielded cockpits. Yes, they could potentially trap drivers inside the car, but do we not now have the technology to make them safe? It just needs a failsafe way for the marshalls to access the driver after an accident.

I wish the teams innovated regarding safety like they innovate when it comes to diffusers.

Nomination: lamest Post of the Year! [-X

Actually, I'm nominating your personal attack on a new users post.

Don't attack peoples or their posts personally, it's just not cool, and does nothing to help this discussion, or any other one.

I've already got you in the back of my mind for a prize for something of the year, but I'll keep it to myself.

I attacked the post, not the person - sure i wasn't diplomatic about it but the claims made were absurd!

[Ray]

Really, I think the Kimi crash is important here. The fact that you can easily see the extreme difference in head movement, in a not so different accident. Massa was quicker, but altogether there are similar forces going on. Because of the Kimi crash, one can't say that it's the result of Felipe being unconscious. It is impossible to hold your head up in an crash, so the fact that Massa went so much further forward is intriguing. Why was there so much give in the HANS? That's a question for a proper investigation, but it needs to be asked.

It is impossible to hold your head up in a crash, but it's another thing if you don't have it back up against the rest behind your head. Felipes' head was probably closer to the wheel than Kimis' at the time of the impact.

I heard a good point on the SpeedTV broadcast I think. Someone said this is why we need testing during the season. Not just straight line testing like they have now, but real honest track tests. That way they can get a car out there and test the parts under real loads and real conditions instead of relying on a computer to tell them if it works. I know they had never had this problem before, but maybe with testing it would have shown up sooner and could have been fixed. Just throwing it out there. I think they are right myself.

[dp35]

Worn by:

[ringo]

The belts are supplied by a third party and have to be approved by the Fia to a standard.

Seriously 90% of this thread is wild speculation and or bullshit

A very talented driver is hurt the who why and what will be investigated with more thought and process using the factual data of telemetry and frame by frame tv evidence.

The spring hit where it did, NOT 2 inches up or down.

see above post for clarification on wild speculation and bull

If the belts were not to FIA spec the car would fail scrutineering, they are very very hot on belts and helmets and check every drivers Hans, Helmet and Belts at every race weekend.

Do they do tension tests on the belts before every race?
Even though they test, it does not rule out a failure. The FIA is made up of mere men and the HANS is man made. Anything man made can fail.
After seeing parachute failures on television and fighter planes with electrical failures, and we all have an idea how stringent the airforce regulations are regarding testing. I guess this is a one off incident too.
Well anyhow we look at it, we can expect much more focus on safety restraints in the future.

And to add another dynamic if you watch the video again it was the edge of the tire barrier that buckled and hit him in the head and broke the visor. (Just look for the green think bending down)

[mpbx3003]

I heard a good point on the SpeedTV broadcast I think. Someone said this is why we need testing during the season. Not just straight line testing like they have now, but real honest track tests. That way they can get a car out there and test the parts under real loads and real conditions instead of relying on a computer to tell them if it works. I know they had never had this problem before, but maybe with testing it would have shown up sooner and could have been fixed. Just throwing it out there. I think they are right myself.

I wholeheartedly agree, there needs to be some testing allowed, it's just not safe if there are parts with less-than-obvious deficiencies that are only apparent after lots of track time. Testing is really the only way to accomplish that. I liked the proposal they had on SpeedTV during Second Practice, of letting Thursday become an expanded testing day, and letting the fans in to see it. I think an intensive test day at every circuit would allow teams to add new parts frequently, but also allow them to make sure of the safety in a more relaxed way. Better that than during a heated qualifying session, where teams are more likely to push through a problem instead rather than be safe.

[mpbx3003]

And to add another dynamic if you watch the video again it was the edge of the tire barrier that buckled and hit him in the head and broke the visor. (Just look for the green think bending down)

The tyres in the barrier are held in by simple conveyor belt. Maybe not anymore, but I know in the past it was. I doubt the conveyor hitting him would have done too much damage, but well spotted nonetheless.

[Skunk0001]

It should be noted that the TV telemetry only ever shows the brake as on, or off, a full red bar doesnt mean full brakes, just that the pedal is being touched.

Also:

He was briefly knocked unconscious and his feet went onto the brake and throttle simultaneously.

The data says that he applied 60bar of pressure to the brake, which is the equivalent of laying his foot on it gently, while the throttle was effectively jammed on.

Source: http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/07/t ... -on-massa/

Check the source out for more valid information.

Hope Felipe gets better soon.

[zx9rc1]

Update from James Allens blog:

He is in an induced coma while the doctors assess brain brusing, his condition was incorrectly stated as life threatening, he will be woken up tomorrow, operation was successful, he will be out of action for as little as 2 months or longer but probably the rest of 2009. He was on a slow down lap. The damper came off the Brawn was still attached but it broke and the spring came out. The spring is steel and weighs approx 1kg, He was knocked unconscious and went onto the brake and throttle at the same time
He put an equivalent pressure of 60bar on the brake which is laying your foot on it gently. The throttle was jammed hard on. Brawn replaced the the damper in JB's car as a safety measure before the end of qualifying

[zx9rc1]

Do they do tension tests on the belts before every race?
Even though they test, it does not rule out a failure. The FIA is made up of mere men and the HANS is man made. Anything man made can fail.
After seeing parachute failures on television and fighter planes with electrical failures, and we all have an idea how stringent the airforce regulations are regarding testing. I guess this is a one off incident too.
Well anyhow we look at it, we can expect much more focus on safety restraints in the future.

And to add another dynamic if you watch the video again it was the edge of the tire barrier that buckled and hit him in the head and broke the visor. (Just look for the green think bending down)[/quote]

Not when I have raced... but they do replace the belts every race for brand new ones

[dp35]

As a racer that uses a HANS device, IMO the belts, HANS, and helmet did their jobs as designed. The straps of a HANS device can be adjusted, and if they're long they'll allow more head movement before stopping it. Belts are designed to stretch, and these obviously did.

IMO the damage to the helmet was 100% caused by the spring. I can't tell if the helmet hit the steering wheel, but its obvious the spring hit right where the helmet is damaged and the injury occurred.

[modbaraban]

Any updates from Ferrari as to tomorrow's driver substitution?

It should be noted that the TV telemetry only ever shows the brake as on, or off, a full red bar doesnt mean full brakes, just that the pedal is being touched.

Also:

He was briefly knocked unconscious and his feet went onto the brake and throttle simultaneously.

The data says that he applied 60bar of pressure to the brake, which is the equivalent of laying his foot on it gently, while the throttle was effectively jammed on.

Turns out my 'bullshit speculation' based on the video is actually pretty correct?

[Scotracer]

Any updates from Ferrari as to tomorrow's driver substitution?

It should be noted that the TV telemetry only ever shows the brake as on, or off, a full red bar doesnt mean full brakes, just that the pedal is being touched.

Also:

He was briefly knocked unconscious and his feet went onto the brake and throttle simultaneously.

The data says that he applied 60bar of pressure to the brake, which is the equivalent of laying his foot on it gently, while the throttle was effectively jammed on.

Turns out my 'bullshit speculation' based on the video is actually pretty correct?

I don't think they are allowed to substitute drivers during an event?

[WhiteBlue]

I do not know how thick F1 polycarbonate visors are, but hey can go from 4-6.4 mm im military applications where they are considered to be safe in demining operations and extreme rioting. A properly designed Lexan shield is very likely to stop even an 150 mph object of 800 g like the spring that hit Massa. This is the stuff they use for fighter canopies and bullet proof windows. Before I would advocate a canopy I would look into a deflection shield in front of the driver and a thicker and more overlaping visor.