Massa crashes after being hit by heave spring

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modbaraban
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Joined: 05 Apr 2007, 17:44
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

Re: Massa crashes after being hit by heave spring

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Scotracer wrote:I don't think they are allowed to substitute drivers during an event?
19) CHANGES OF DRIVER
19.1 a) During a season each team will be permitted to use four drivers. Changes may be made at any time before the start of the qualifying practice session provided any change proposed after 16.00 on the day of scrutineering receives the consent of the stewards.
Additional changes for reasons of force majeure will be considered separately.

Conceptual
Conceptual
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Re: Massa crashes after being hit by heave spring

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Does Sunday warmup count for the replacement driver?

mx_tifoso
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Re: Massa crashes after being hit by heave spring

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My best wishes go towards Masssa, may all turn out well for him.

Third tub being prepared, so it seems that there will be a reserve driver racing tomorrow.
Image

I can't even fathom what it was like up until the 70's, with so many fatal accidents and all. Those guys were cold blooded no doubt.
Last edited by mx_tifoso on 26 Jul 2009, 06:06, edited 1 time in total.
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MattyT
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Re: Massa crashes after being hit by heave spring

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Conceptual wrote:Does Sunday warmup count for the replacement driver?
There isn't a Sunday warmup...

modbaraban
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Re: Massa crashes after being hit by heave spring

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Conceptual wrote:Does Sunday warmup count for the replacement driver?
There isn't any warm up anymore. But I was thinking along the lines of force majeure rule. Ferrari test drivers are much more experienced than many on the grid (esp. Jaime) so think they can be allowed to start.

nosh
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Re: Massa crashes after being hit by heave spring

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i was thinking a parachute like device, like they use in drag racing would possibly useful to help slow the car down in this case. i dont know how it could be activated if they where unconscious (team could possibly do it from pits), this would also be good for brake / wheel failures similar to heikki's crash in spain last year. the parachute could probably be somehow mounted either on the camera bit at the top of the car or some other way

wondergoblin
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timbo wrote:
ISLAMATRON wrote:Good Lord that is scary, hope he is fully ok. Are open cockpits soon to be on the way out? How much trouble would a fighter jet style cockpit be to incorperate?
Well, in Massa's case it IS a freak accident. Not much can be improved really except the cockpit. However, I don't think canopy is automatically safer - there's possibility of it locking and preventing driver from escaping the car, esp in upside down position.
IMHO raced windshield and drag-racer style roll protection is safest of all.
Two drivers in six days being injured (minimum) by a part separating from another car and entering the cockpit is no longer a freak accident. It's time to take notice. And remember- the part could have bounced this way instead of that and ended up in the crowd.

In F2, hub tethers would have saved Henry Surtees. That wasn't just a wheel that hit him- it was a wheel, hub and (unless they run inboards) brake disc and caliper. That's not a light piece of gear. From various comments elsewhere, there has been a spate of hub separations in F2 lately and it will be looked at.

In Massa's case, from what I haver seen and has been reported, it really looks like what hit him was a spring. Popular opinion is it came from the back Ruben's car. I don't know the exact Brawn setup, but I would have thought that all spring/damper arrangements were coil-overs to save space. In that arrangement it would be almost impossible for the spring to separate. However, I don't claim to be an expert in Brawn suspension layouts.

If the spring and damper are separate units, it would be easy to restrain the spring with something as simple as good old fashioned lockwire. Maybe the regs need to be modified so that each part is affixed to the car in at least one end in a way that minimises the chance of the part separating from the car.

In addition, the tyres-with-a-conveyor-belt may have done more harm than good. Notwithstandinng the HANS device, there was a visible yellow imprint of Massa's helmet on the belt after the impact.

Positives- the tub retained enough integrity that he was not more seriously injured with for example damage to his legs/feet.

We can't make it safe- but we can make it less dangerous.

In any event- all the best for a speedy and complete recovery, Felipe.

wondergoblin
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Re: Massa crashes after being hit by heave spring

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nosh wrote:i was thinking a parachute like device, like they use in drag racing would possibly useful to help slow the car down in this case. i dont know how it could be activated if they where unconscious (team could possibly do it from pits), this would also be good for brake / wheel failures similar to heikki's crash in spain last year. the parachute could probably be somehow mounted either on the camera bit at the top of the car or some other way
The reaction time would be too great for it to deploy usefully, especially if you relied on the pits to push the button...

wondergoblin
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Re: Massa crashes after being hit by heave spring

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modbaraban wrote:
modbaraban wrote:He came off the throttle and the deceleration of the car (due to aero drag and hitting the curbs) sent his uncontious body slightly forward which caused very mild braking (+ no grip). The deceleration looked very insignificant. Thus slight and inconsistent skid marks from the front tyres.
Another issue was that the car was sitting in the tyres with the engine sounding like it was bouncing on the rev limiter- could the the anti-stall have kicked in?

Maybe there needs to be a G-triggered engine cut- any impact above 10G would probably mean the car is not going much further anyway.

wondergoblin
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Re: Massa crashes after being hit by heave spring

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dp35 wrote:As a racer that uses a HANS device, IMO the belts, HANS, and helmet did their jobs as designed. The straps of a HANS device can be adjusted, and if they're long they'll allow more head movement before stopping it. Belts are designed to stretch, and these obviously did.

IMO the damage to the helmet was 100% caused by the spring. I can't tell if the helmet hit the steering wheel, but its obvious the spring hit right where the helmet is damaged and the injury occurred.
There is a tell-tale flouro yellow imprint on the "conveyor belt" after the impact. I doubt that would have helped Felipe... The HANS stops the head going forward, maybe to the impact, but in this case the impacts came to the helmet.

Sure, I agree that the spring did the damage, but the tyre wall didn't help him a lot.

SoundQ
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Joined: 26 Jul 2009, 09:12

Re: Massa crashes after being hit by heave spring

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Just a thought: The conspiracy theorists in the Senna crash claimed that death was immediate, but that the announcement was made afterwards for reasons of economics. If I remember correctly, the statement at the time was "coma". Any chance this is the same situation?

For the record, I am a Ferrari fan, and a Massa fan in particular...so I hope that I am wrong. I sincerely hope for his quick recovery, and return to racing. My thoughts are with his family and team.

Assuming that this is not going to happen for this race, how is it decided if a replacement car is allowed? Who is the qualified/designated driver if so? Where is that car slotted on the grid? How is that determined?

bjpower
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Re: Massa crashes after being hit by heave spring

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wondergoblin wrote:
modbaraban wrote:
modbaraban wrote:He came off the throttle and the deceleration of the car (due to aero drag and hitting the curbs) sent his uncontious body slightly forward which caused very mild braking (+ no grip). The deceleration looked very insignificant. Thus slight and inconsistent skid marks from the front tyres.
Another issue was that the car was sitting in the tyres with the engine sounding like it was bouncing on the rev limiter- could the the anti-stall have kicked in?

Maybe there needs to be a G-triggered engine cut- any impact above 10G would probably mean the car is not going much further anyway.

I was looking at one video with the g readings etc
he floored the throttle and the brake.
he was only decelerating at 1 g.

timbo
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Re: Massa crashes after being hit by heave spring

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It is reported that he was awaken.
Hope all goes well!

myurr
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Re: Massa crashes after being hit by heave spring

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Some observations:

For the helmet to make a mark like that on the tyre barrier suggests a not insignificant force and I would speculate that at least some of Massa's injuries were caused by this impact, especially if the helmet was already damaged.

The tyre marks pulse, showing clearly that only two wheels were responsible for the marks and that the car was still bouncing after running over the curbs (further reducing the retardation).

The side view of the impact shows FM's head moving at least six inches forwards during the tyre wall impact, something I believed should be impossible with a fully functioning HANS. Could the initial spring impact have damaged HANS in some way - it was afterall a significant enough impact to knock Massa out.

Rubens was quoted on Sky News as having said that the helmets aren't currently designed for a foreign object impact like that with the spring, they are constructed to help in a whole car impact with a barrier. He believed that they could be strengthened.

Despite two recent occurrences these are still freak accidents - the equivalent of being struck twice by lightning. Something that can happen but is so rare that we don't all walk around with lightning conductors strapped to our heads.

Let's wait for the full facts as to which events caused which injuries, and look to specific, well informed and practical improvements that can be made. For example, if it's found that HANS failed to do it's job and that was what caused the majority of Massa's injuries then putting a canopy on the car wouldn't be the best course of action!

jonathan189
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Re: Massa crashes after being hit by heave spring

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SoundQ wrote:Just a thought: The conspiracy theorists in the Senna crash claimed that death was immediate, but that the announcement was made afterwards for reasons of economics. If I remember correctly, the statement at the time was "coma". Any chance this is the same situation?
No. To say that Massa is "stable" and that the surgery was "successful" if this were not the case would be sick beyond belief. I think we can believe the press releases.

With Senna presumably no one wanted to say the word until all hope was extinguished.

I guess Charlie Whiting will decide on whether a test driver can drive given the special circumstances. But what would be the point? He would have to start from the back of the grid and would surely score no points.