Massa crashes after being hit by heave spring

[kilcoo316]

But rather than stopping there, why not think about those "little" things that can be done, see if they are practicable, and then do them?

The term "there is little that can be done" is a figure of speech...

[myurr]

I'll bite...

It is amazing how much bullshit is written in this threat.

Yup.

Massa got hit by a mass of around 1kg with a speed of approximated 255km/h.
That is a massive impact on a helmet and that is the reason for his injuries.
From this moment on he was obviously out of consciousness but slightly on the brakes
and never on full throttle.

Actually he was full throttle, hence the rears not locking. And yes the initial impact was massive and knocked him unconscious. However the yellow colouring on his helmet was also all over the tyre barrier showing that there was a significant secondary impact on an already damaged helmet. It would be ridiculous to rule out the effects of that at this stage.

If the brakes where full operated, the tires would have had enough grip to slow the car down.
Saying the car had no grip is nonsense because the tires would have looked then.

Watch again and you'll see that the front tyres are locked from when the car ran over the grass, over the curb, over the track, and across the run off. Whilst Massa wasn't applying a huge amount of pressure, because of the lack of grip and the fact that the car was lifted by the curbs, it was enough to lock the front tyres. The fact that the throttle was still depressed is what stopped the rears from locking.

Nevertheless the car slowed down a bit.
The impact on the tire walls wasn't that hard, because they are really soft.

Well that's okay then, they're really soft. Let's totally ignore that part of the impact then. Afterall no driver has ever been injured by driving at speed into a tyre barrier.

They take the energy over a relatively far distance.
Just have a look on the nose of the car. It is not damaged that much.
So it could protect the driver from a heavier impact like the one from Kubica.

You're right that they did a good job in slowing the car down and that they dissipate the energy of the crash over a relatively lengthy period of time. However they still clouted Massa's helmet hard enough to take paint off the helmet.

I don't know how the HANS worked but so does none of us.
I am sure it is state of the art and absolutely safe.

HANS, like any part of the car or circuit, is not beyond reproach just because it's 'state of the art'. There are drivers on this thread who race with HANS who have commented on it's effectiveness in this crash. I'm sure that the spring that came off the Brawn was considered state of the art, yet this component failed catastrophically.

This means that it was not damaged or something like this.
Maybe it can't do his job 100% when the driver is out of consciousness.
For one thing I am sure HANS should not hold the drivers head 100% rigid on the place, because this would be really bad.

Speculation without being based on any evidence.

The head still needs some movement to reduce the G loads on the head.
Inside the head is the brain bedded in liquid.
With a to stiff HANS the brain will hit the skull really hard and that effects sever brain injuries.
So don't blame the HANS or the belts.

We don't know what is to blame yet - if anything. Maybe all the components worked as designed and nothing is to blame, it was just an unfortunate accident. In which case we can look at improving the regulations to help prevent a repeat occurrence, or just live with the fact that it was incredibly unlucky, very unlikely to happen again, and that the risk is just part of F1 that we all need to live with.

I rather wonder how a spring can come loose of the car.
I really want to see how the spring arrangement of the brawns is done because naturally are the springs placed around the dampers and are really bedded in the car.

It came loose because of a component failure. It happens. It was unfortunate, but it is part of the risk of racing.

[myurr]

But rather than stopping there, why not think about those "little" things that can be done, see if they are practicable, and then do them?

The term "there is little that can be done" is a figure of speech...

One thing that could be done is to limit all the cars to 30mph. Much less risk of a fatality then and in this case Massa would not have been injured as the spring was not traveling quickly at all.

Ridiculous, I know, but where do you draw the line? It has to be drawn somewhere, and at some point you have to accept that there will be freak accidents that are regrettable but unavoidable if you want fast cars to race wheel to wheel against each other.

[kilcoo316]

It has to be drawn somewhere, and at some point you have to accept that there will be freak accidents that are regrettable but unavoidable if you want fast cars to race wheel to wheel against each other.

Exactly. Hence me asking for no silly knee jerk reactions.

[mep]

Actually he was full throttle, hence the rears not locking. And yes the initial impact was massive and knocked him unconscious. However the yellow colouring on his helmet was also all over the tyre barrier showing that there was a significant secondary impact on an already damaged helmet. It would be ridiculous to rule out the effects of that at this stage.

The rear tires were not looking because he didn't apply the brakes with full pressure. Like the front tires also where not looking most of the time.
You can hear the revs. going down, how should this happen when he is on full throttle?
By the way on full throttle should brake moment be bigger than engine moment.

Watch again and you'll see that the front tyres are locked from when the car ran over the grass, over the curb, over the track, and across the run off. Whilst Massa wasn't applying a huge amount of pressure, because of the lack of grip and the fact that the car was lifted by the curbs, it was enough to lock the front tyres. The fact that the throttle was still depressed is what stopped the rears from locking.

Of course they are looking when he runs over the grass, grass gives absolutely no grip. And it is naturally that they are looking when they don't touch the ground.
But they start to spin several times again. This can't happen when the driver has full pressure on the throttle.

[C/\D]

Is it possible for the pit wall to brake the cars remote?

[bjpower]

It is amazing how much bullshit is written in this threat.

Massa got hit by a mass of around 1kg with a speed of approximated 255km/h.
That is a massive impact on a helmet and that is the reason for his injuries.
From this moment on he was obviously out of consciousness but slightly on the brakes
and never on full throttle.

If the brakes where full operated, the tires would have had enough grip to slow the car down.
Saying the car had no grip is nonsense because the tires would have looked then.

Nevertheless the car slowed down a bit.
The impact on the tire walls wasn't that hard, because they are really soft.
They take the energy over a relatively far distance.
Just have a look on the nose of the car. It is not damaged that much.
So it could protect the driver from a heavier impact like the one from Kubica.

I don't know how the HANS worked but so does none of us.
I am sure it is state of the art and absolutely safe.
This means that it was not damaged or something like this.
Maybe it can't do his job 100% when the driver is out of consciousness.
For one thing I am sure HANS should not hold the drivers head 100% rigid on the place, because this would be really bad.
The head still needs some movement to reduce the G loads on the head.
Inside the head is the brain bedded in liquid.
With a to stiff HANS the brain will hit the skull really hard and that effects sever brain injuries.
So don't blame the HANS or the belts.

I rather wonder how a spring can come loose of the car.
I really want to see how the spring arrangement of the brawns is done because naturally are the springs placed around the dampers and are really bedded in the car.

If you look at the video footage and listen to the engine, and look at the g force reading and the throttle reading and the brake reading. you will see the brake and throttle were both pressed fully. and you will see the g reading at about 1 g.

secondly if you look on the f1 website you will see the spring did not hit massa directly but bounced off the side crash structure of the cockpit (HANS device is also near this area).
at 255 kmh a direct hit from a 1 kg mass would have gone straight through him.
he was hit in the left side of his helmet ( the hands device is secured at the sides)

again look at the video the car its bouncing.
when a car is in mid air it has very little grip

also tire walls are only "really soft" when compared to things like concrete.
yes the help but they are not pillows.

It is amazing how much bullshit is written in this threat.

[FLC]

After watching the slow motion video, I don't think his helmet touched the belt of that tyre wall, all the more left the mark you see in pictures. His head went straight into the steering wheel.

[mep]

Brakes and throttle were applied slightly at the same time but not fully.
Look at the tires and hear the engine sound, don't look on these graphs on the left they are not 100% correct.

[bjpower]

I would assume the bars are based on how much the pedals are pressed rather than the power output.
as most things are electronic i would assume there is some kind of software to stop the engine flooring while the brakes applied.
as it would rip the drive train if not the car apart.

[timbo]

I would assume the bars are based on how much the pedals are pressed rather than the power output.

Throttle bar is indeed showing the amount of movement, bake pedal bar is only on/off. not showing actual pressure, but rather whether it is pressed at all.

[benjabulle]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am1j--89DAA[/youtube]
Spring of BRAWN

Hope it didn't take them too much time to do this s....look at Brawn rear suspension :

[mep]

as it would rip the drive train if not the car apart.

It is quite obvious that you have no clue about the technical stuff.

Maybe there is some electronically system to prevent the situation of max. engine power and brake power at the same time but mechanically it is no problem to do this, apart from some wear.
But for sure the drivetrain and the car will not explode when doing so.
The graph shows 100% when it is touched it does not show how much it is touched.


By the way the HANS system is located much lower in the cockpit so it can’t got hit by the spring.

[sunny1304]

according to Ferrari Massa is fighting for life .....according to FIA he is stable.

they have startrf fighting even in this situation....... [-X

[andartop]

according to Ferrari Massa is fighting for life .....according to FIA he is stable.

they have startrf fighting even in this situation....... [-X

What on earth are you talking about?
The Ferrari press spokesman just declared live on the bbc that Felipe is okay, he had a second CT scan which was okay, that he was awake earlier and now is asleep..