Massa crashes after being hit by heave spring

[Ray]

The FIA needs to seriously consider shielded cockpits. Yes, they could potentially trap drivers inside the car, but do we not now have the technology to make them safe? It just needs a failsafe way for the marshalls to access the driver after an accident.

When did you lose interest -- when they introduced seatbelts?

You enjoy your TT racing or whatever it is you watch now -- meanwhile I'll be hoping no F1 drivers die unnecessarily because possible safety measures have not been considered for fear of diluting the "essence of F1". The drivers are the essence of F1, and I prefer them alive.

How can you advocate something that could, in you own words, 'potentially trap drivers inside the car' and 'no F1 drivers die unnecessarily because possible safety measures have not been considered for fear of diluting the "essence of F1', and then chide someone for not wanting something that would be more dangerous?

[ISLAMATRON]

you mean like how seatbelts "potentially trap drivers in the car"?

Closed cockpits can and should be done, maybe not by you, but by much more capable engineers.

Consider this? How many drivers have been killed(or severly injured) from being trapped in a closed cockpit in the last month or so? And how many have been from being hit by foreign objects while in an open cockpit?

Just cause you cant think of how to do it, does not mean it cant be done.

[ISLAMATRON]

By the way, what exactly is a 'heave' spring? Does anyone know?

I did a Google search, and already half of the first page is returning results about Massa's crash

It is the 3rd spring... introduced to "absorb" the suspension travel created by the huge downforce created at high speed.

[wondergoblin]

Another issue was that the car was sitting in the tyres with the engine sounding like it was bouncing on the rev limiter- could the the anti-stall have kicked in?

Maybe there needs to be a G-triggered engine cut- any impact above 10G would probably mean the car is not going much further anyway.

I was looking at one video with the g readings etc
he floored the throttle and the brake.
he was only decelerating at 1 g.

I was talking about having the engine cut after the impact. The car was stationary, but it seemed that the engine was on the rev limiter.

[Ray]

you mean like how seatbelts "potentially trap drivers in the car"?

Closed cockpits can and should be done, maybe not by you, but by much more capable engineers.

Consider this? How many drivers have been killed(or severly injured) from being trapped in a closed cockpit in the last month or so? And how many have been from being hit by foreign objects while in an open cockpit?

Just cause you cant think of how to do it, does not mean it cant be done.

I think I've shut you up on this once, don't make me do it again.

EDIT

Before you get your panties in a knot ISLAMATRON, I was joking. Just making a snide comment for a few laughs.

[Rob W]

At what speed do you estimate he hit the tire wall at? I heard on the news it was close to 200km/h but in the video it looks nothing like that fast.

In the video it is clearly audible that almost right after he's hit the throttle starts to drop down, considerably so by the time he hits the wall. And the G-meter shows an almost constant 1G of deceleration for most of the space between then and hitting the wall (except when crossing the curbs/road). Anyone care to estimate the impact speed? You don't have to hit something very fast to get seriously injured especially if you're not braced for it as was the case here.

[ISLAMATRON]

you mean like how seatbelts "potentially trap drivers in the car"?

Closed cockpits can and should be done, maybe not by you, but by much more capable engineers.

Consider this? How many drivers have been killed(or severly injured) from being trapped in a closed cockpit in the last month or so? And how many have been from being hit by foreign objects while in an open cockpit?

Just cause you cant think of how to do it, does not mean it cant be done.

I think I've shut you up on this once, don't make me do it again.

I deferred to your experience with explosives but there would be other ways to execute a closed cockpit safely... you didnt "shut me up" on anything... so answer the question I posed, dont seatbelts "potentially trap drivers in the car"? Then why are they mandated?

[ISLAMATRON]

At what speed do you estimate he hit the tire wall at? I heard on the news it was close to 200km/h but in the video it looks nothing like that fast.

SpeedTV quoted 60 mph/100 kph

[Ray]

you mean like how seatbelts "potentially trap drivers in the car"?

Closed cockpits can and should be done, maybe not by you, but by much more capable engineers.

Consider this? How many drivers have been killed(or severly injured) from being trapped in a closed cockpit in the last month or so? And how many have been from being hit by foreign objects while in an open cockpit?

Just cause you cant think of how to do it, does not mean it cant be done.

I think I've shut you up on this once, don't make me do it again.

I deferred to your experience with explosives but there would be other ways to execute a closed cockpit safely... you didnt "shut me up" on anything... so answer the question I posed, dont seatbelts "potentially trap drivers in the car"? Then why are they mandated?

First off I was joking, I edited my comment to reflect that, but I wasn't fast enough. Secondly, since you advocate both KERS, and enclosed cockpits let me pose a question for you. Since Kimi had a battery failure in his car on his KERS system what would you say if that happened in conjunction with his closed canopy cockpit being stuck and he was either burned severely or breathed in the toxic fumes from that battery? Sure you could move the battery but say some electrical wiring caught fire. What then? What about rain races? Can you guarantee it won't fog over and cause a dangerous situation? I'm sure you can, but that again introduces another system that can fail.

To answer your question I can't think of anyone being stuck in car to due the belts malfunctioning. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened I just can't think of any. The only time I can remember that a safety restraint caused a driver to be injured was Doug Wolfgangs' steering wheel being stuck in a Sprint Car crash and he was severely burned, but they learned that the release mechanism shouldn't have been made of plastic.

[ISLAMATRON]

First off I was joking, I edited my comment to reflect that, but I wasn't fast enough. Secondly, since you advocate both KERS, and enclosed cockpits let me pose a question for you. Since Kimi had a battery failure in his car on his KERS system what would you say if that happened in conjunction with his closed canopy cockpit being stuck and he was either burned severely or breathed in the toxic fumes from that battery? Sure you could move the battery but say some electrical wiring caught fire. What then? What about rain races? Can you guarantee it won't fog over and cause a dangerous situation? I'm sure you can, but that again introduces another system that can fail.

To answer your question I can't think of anyone being stuck in car to due the belts malfunctioning. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened I just can't think of any. The only time I can remember that a safety restraint caused a driver to be injured was Doug Wolfgangs' steering wheel being stuck in a Sprint Car crash and he was severely burned, but they learned that the release mechanism shouldn't have been made of plastic.

The rules have already been changed for all KERS systems to be placed between the fuel cell and the rear wheels, but that is moot if they(FOTA) kill it off.

To emergency release the cockpit they can have explosive bolts like i previously proposed, or pressurized air(or CO2), hydraulic like the neutral safety switch, there are plenty of options, here in florida most people carry a hammer to break glass if they go into any of the million of canals, I guess they would rather get eaten by alligators than drown. But I doubt they would make the canopy out of glass.

[i70q7m7ghw]

Did the spring puncture his visor? I can see it smashed it up but it alost looks as if one end of the spring went in and caused that massive gash above his eye... Any detailed pictures of the damage to the helmet? I saw a few which showed surface damage but the structure looked intact, looks like it did it's job and some more.

(I haven't read the whole thread so excuse me if i say anything thats been said before)

FYI - this talk of canopies and closing the driving in is rediculous, it won't ever happen, F1 is an open wheel open cockpit sport and always will be. If you put something over the driver you then raise the issue of keeping it clean so he can see, you want to design a window wiper for a fighter jet? Rules can be changed to help prevent stray wheels and other large objects, but something as freak as a suspension spring is always going to be a danger. You would need bullet proof glass to protect against an impact like Massa's and even then I don't know if that would work? And then your talking about breaking it with a hammer!? Jeez

I think the only change that can be made is possibly improvements to helmet design, but it looks like Massa's did a pretty good job...

[jason.parker.86]

Guys - What about if the helmets visor was to be redesigned so that instead of it bolting on the side of the helmet, it would sort of go inside the helmets body. This would have prevented the spring smashing the fastner off his helmet and thus opening his visor.

[djos]

Guys - What about if the helmets visor was to be redesigned so that instead of it bolting on the side of the helmet, it would sort of go inside the helmets body. This would have prevented the spring smashing the fastner off his helmet and thus opening his visor.

The injury was not caused by the visor being damaged but by the aprox. 160 kilos (800grams travelling @ 200kph) of focused force compressing the foam inside the helmet and then the helmet itself into Massa's head above his eye socket.

[jonathan189]

The FIA needs to seriously consider shielded cockpits. Yes, they could potentially trap drivers inside the car, but do we not now have the technology to make them safe? It just needs a failsafe way for the marshalls to access the driver after an accident.

When did you lose interest -- when they introduced seatbelts?

You enjoy your TT racing or whatever it is you watch now -- meanwhile I'll be hoping no F1 drivers die unnecessarily because possible safety measures have not been considered for fear of diluting the "essence of F1". The drivers are the essence of F1, and I prefer them alive.

How can you advocate something that could, in you own words, 'potentially trap drivers inside the car' and 'no F1 drivers die unnecessarily because possible safety measures have not been considered for fear of diluting the "essence of F1', and then chide someone for not wanting something that would be more dangerous?

In the first quote I'm advocating considering covered cockpits -- or any other potential measure to improve safety. I'm not presumptuous enough to judge whether or not any potential safety measure is workable or not. It may be that covered cockpits are not workable. I'm just saying all options should be explored.

In the second post I was arguing against those who think new safety measures shouldn't even be considered because "then it wouldn't be F1".

[jason.parker.86]

The injury was not caused by the visor being damaged but by the aprox. 160 kilos (800grams travelling @ 200kph) of focused force compressing the foam inside the helmet and then the helmet itself into Massa's head above his eye socket.[/quote]

Either way the visor still come off and for all we know some of that conveyor belt / tyre barrier slapped him in the face